Author Topic: Ex-edger  (Read 11719 times)

mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #150 on: August 19, 2020, 12:27:17 AM »
Hiya UK,   Thanks for your prescient words.  (They also feel heartfelt.) 
Today is Day #2. I'm not very hopeful re my odds of success.  One good thing is that I've stayed off hardcore p and "only" relapse lately w/ written stuff.  (Most of it is objectively crap, not even good writing but it's what I've resorted to.)
Maybe that in itself can provide me a glimmer of hope.  I've relapsed and relapsed and relapsed.... but not quite to where I was, not even close.
Maybe saying "broken" was a bit melodramatic of me. When I'm feeling low incredible junk comes out of my head. 
There is a lot in my life to be grateful for and I'm trying to keep that in perspective.

UKGuy

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #151 on: August 19, 2020, 12:49:22 PM »
Great to read that Mr S. Life isn't always binary - PMO or don't PMO. If you're doing less of less bad stuff, that's progress. I think it's certainly a healthier mindset to have gratitude and congratulate yourself for your hard fought improvements than to berate yourself for the perceived failures. That lifts your whole perspective, self worth, and makes ongoing further improvement more likely. Take care.

mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #152 on: August 19, 2020, 05:47:02 PM »
Two days under my belt.  (I hate that expression. lol)  Hoping for a bonafide streak. 

Rookie

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #153 on: August 19, 2020, 11:19:47 PM »
I think you're beating yourself up too much on it. Some on this board were addicted to some crazy things that most of us might find repulsive. Others, (myself) stuck to vanilla for 20 + yrs...everything is an addiction. But in a sense I would count it progress if someone that was addicted to "bondage" now has gotten away from it, and is now "just" fighting vanilla.
Same as myself, it was always just 1 guy and 1 girl...I would count it progress if I downgraded to still images for a bit...till I have the strength to only go to written stories.

Some can do cold turkey (I thank the Lord for this), and some can't. Some have to cut down, and it might take longer, either way...if you have to cut out some of the stuff you were watching / indulging in...go for less hardcore. I doubt ANYONE here will berate you for that, seeing the struggles you are going through, if you took this from a different angle.

Like I said about myself, I got to a point of extreme anxiety (things related but not really to porn) for about 2 months. That's that gave me a head start. If it wasn't for that, I would still be indulging.

So, decide for yourself, what you "were" addicted to, that got you off...and tone down a notch or 2...otherwise, you're just going to go in a tail spin and lose courage.

However!!! If you go with the suggestion I gave above, you will risk falling back. So I would also suggest some serious goals and timelines for improvement.

For instance, most people that start at the gym, want to look like the cover of a magazine in the first workout...that won't happen. So, instead, small goals that are non negotiable and fight to get it. So I would suggest daily goals, if you can't get 3 days without relapse...well on the 3rd day, set a time limit (obviously much shorter than what you typically do, purely for the relief, and not the rush). Then, 3 days later, relief. And whatever you're viewing, tone that down as well. If it's simply action on the screen, move to still images and tell yourself, "I'm never going to bead this if I don't at least change the habit".

Then, for this goal, set yourself, say 2 weeks. Then, after the 2 weeks, check your progress and your resistance. Now, can you do 5 days of the same routine? Or even 10 days? If it's 5, now can you move away from still images to written content?

Unfortunately, this battle might not be a cold turkey one for you like it has been for some of us. We also can't forget, some of us have the help of a spouse...you quitting this, might be like someone on needle drugs that has to wean himself off, a little bit at a time, with a strict discipline. Otherwise, you'll never get out.

I personally vote for the cold turkey. Cutting off all apps on the phone and only logging on the PC for banking, business and this forum. And movies...I even cut off cartoons in the first couple of months due to the extreme beauty of women in those things.

But, not everyone's journey is the same. Keep in mind, NO ONE here is leaving your corner, but you have to keep the gloves on, we can't swing for you.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 10:07:01 AM by Rookie »

mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #154 on: August 20, 2020, 04:11:47 PM »
Hi Rook,  That was a big help. I know cold-turkey is best. Today is Day #4.
It does feel like I'm grasping at straws when I'm cutting back to less and less hardcore. It's probably not even a good strategy.
But by doing something, anything, I can tell myself honestly I've not given up completely.
It is like hoping for a miracle where the chances are one in a million that I'll reboot.
Then I say to myself, "Mr. Slurp, look what you're doing right now. You're chatting with people that care about you and share the same issues. One year ago this opportunity would have seemed like a one in a million miracle."
So, I hope lightning (like you guys) hits twice and something or some revelation drops onto my head and helps.  As they say in France junosequa (you never know). Sorry to any French guys. lol

Rookie

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #155 on: August 20, 2020, 11:14:14 PM »
Hi Rook,  That was a big help. I know cold-turkey is best. Today is Day #4.
It does feel like I'm grasping at straws when I'm cutting back to less and less hardcore. It's probably not even a good strategy.
But by doing something, anything, I can tell myself honestly I've not given up completely.
It is like hoping for a miracle where the chances are one in a million that I'll reboot.
Then I say to myself, "Mr. Slurp, look what you're doing right now. You're chatting with people that care about you and share the same issues. One year ago this opportunity would have seemed like a one in a million miracle."
So, I hope lightning (like you guys) hits twice and something or some revelation drops onto my head and helps.  As they say in France junosequa (you never know). Sorry to any French guys. lol

Glad to hear my little "rant" helped. And just a heads up, junosequa, is actually Jenesaisquoi (Je ne sais quoi), which directly translated, is "I don't know what"....Yes, I'm born and raised French, lol. Your expression nailed it, just needed a bit of spell check. I piss off my wife and friends often, they call me a grammar Nazi...lol.


ShadeTrenicin

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #156 on: August 21, 2020, 01:52:08 AM »



Hey Mr Slurps,

I second what rookie said with the addition to point out that it's 4 days already. Also, you speak of hoping lightning will hit twice, but might i offer another approach on 'hope'

Replace hope by trust: hope and fear are grown from the impression that you are missing something. They grow from a feeling of shortcoming. Contrary to popular belief, hope does not live but prevents living. Hoping is plunging yourself in an imaginary future and so not engaging in the only thing that really matters; the now.

Hope is build from fear, absence of hope leads to trust. I know, its a bit hard to read and it might be a slap in the face (it was for me the first time i read about this) but ultimately this concept helped me in facing my fears!

Anyway, you are already actively putting effort into not being addicted anymore, you are not hoping for it.


Good luck buddy, I am rooting for you

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mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #157 on: August 21, 2020, 05:46:11 PM »
Day #5.  Hi guys,  Shade, I'm so glad you showed up.  I've been thinking re you and your loyalty and courage. We should re-name you, "Mr. Amazing grace".  I once was lost but now I'm...
You've been a good pal and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that.
Plus, Shade you may be a mystic.  I was just thinking re fear... That definitely pervades this crappy addiction. The flip-side of fear (hope) probably isn't much help, at least in my case. That is because I have relapses and they disappoint me. That starts the old vicious circle ending in relapse.
The Buddhists have a lot of wisdom when it comes to this stuff (present moment mindfulness...). I've been doing meditation and it does help.(UK is my guru. lol)
 I'll try to use that instead of my usual metaphor of the boxing match.
Dear Senor Rook, your "rant" felt pretty deep to me. Plus I'm forever indebted to you for the French lesson. I'm restraining myself from making more wise-ass comments.
Thanks guys


Rookie

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #158 on: August 21, 2020, 11:19:09 PM »
Day #5.  Hi guys,  Shade, I'm so glad you showed up.  I've been thinking re you and your loyalty and courage. We should re-name you, "Mr. Amazing grace".  I once was lost but now I'm...
You've been a good pal and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that.
Plus, Shade you may be a mystic.  I was just thinking re fear... That definitely pervades this crappy addiction. The flip-side of fear (hope) probably isn't much help, at least in my case. That is because I have relapses and they disappoint me. That starts the old vicious circle ending in relapse.
The Buddhists have a lot of wisdom when it comes to this stuff (present moment mindfulness...). I've been doing meditation and it does help.(UK is my guru. lol)
 I'll try to use that instead of my usual metaphor of the boxing match.
Dear Senor Rook, your "rant" felt pretty deep to me. Plus I'm forever indebted to you for the French lesson. I'm restraining myself from making more wise-ass comments.
Thanks guys

We're all here to help you Mr. S...obviously, we can't fight it for you. However, many of us at our age, bring different angles of wisdom and advice. Some of us are in sales, accounting, management, labor, janitors...and we all bring a different perspective to life and jobs. That's what makes this forum so great. We'll all think of idea to help a struggling brother, hoping it's going to be an angle they never thought of.

I'm not throwing the towel in your ring yet bro. You DID prove at the start of this fight that you could get some streaks going...it's just to find that fighter in you again.


mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #159 on: August 23, 2020, 01:18:37 AM »
Day #0
This relapse was definitely related to my physical state (hung over and not enough sleep) and thereby being thrown off routine/equilibrium.
Now it remains to re-build and not get too disappointed.  I had 6 days and now I'll try again. 

UKGuy

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #160 on: August 23, 2020, 04:08:55 AM »
Well done on immediately identifying the triggers Mr S. I guess the question is that next time one or more of those factors comes into play (tired, hungover), what can you do differently to change the outcome?
Take pride in your 6 days - that is a solid achievement, and more bricks in your foundation, particularly if you can extract all of the learning whilst fresh in your mind.

mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #161 on: August 24, 2020, 01:21:19 AM »
Day # 0.   Hi Guys,   Warning.  This post is unfair and probably arrogant. I'm asking for caring that I don't give myself, advice that I can't give others, and asking you guys to open your ears to someone that feels like he has nothing to offer.
That's how I feel, clobbered and scared.  I'm even thinking of putting those awful words on myself like perv, weirdo, pathetic...
So, I'm asking this in sincerity, not voyeurism/entertainment. And please don't answer if you don't think it will help me or anyone else.
When you were feeling lost, dejected, hopeless, and empty after repeated relapses. What was the best and/or worst thing you've done? (This doesn't have to be an intentional action. It may be subconscious and only understood in retrospect.)
Again, I know this isn't being fair to you guys.  It's just that I'm feeling desperate.

mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #162 on: August 24, 2020, 01:51:11 AM »
This is just a true journal entry. It is a rambling story that is peripherally related to reboot/pmo.
About 11 years ago my ex and I were in the divorce process. She read, copied and gave to her lawyer certain passages from my journals. They were humiliating although not vicious or insulting. It was out of meanness b/c it couldn't help her in an uncontested divorce.
The breach of trust (among others) was painful and stuck with me. But I've continued to journal and value it greatly. Instead of the real words I would always say "surf the net" or "waste time" and other euphemisms. It is arrogant because it assumes some body would want to read it and care. Probably there was some subconscious taint from my ex.
So, to answer my own question above, probably the best thing I did was get honest with myself and write down the words "porn addiction" many times. I stopped fudging it. This was at a very low point like now.
Maybe this can be an anchor for me to stick this out.

Rookie

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #163 on: August 24, 2020, 07:07:45 AM »
Day # 0.   Hi Guys,   Warning.  This post is unfair and probably arrogant. I'm asking for caring that I don't give myself, advice that I can't give others, and asking you guys to open your ears to someone that feels like he has nothing to offer.
That's how I feel, clobbered and scared.  I'm even thinking of putting those awful words on myself like perv, weirdo, pathetic...
So, I'm asking this in sincerity, not voyeurism/entertainment. And please don't answer if you don't think it will help me or anyone else.
When you were feeling lost, dejected, hopeless, and empty after repeated relapses. What was the best and/or worst thing you've done? (This doesn't have to be an intentional action. It may be subconscious and only understood in retrospect.)
Again, I know this isn't being fair to you guys.  It's just that I'm feeling desperate.

I refused to let porn addiction define me. While yes, I'm a recovering addict, it doesn't define me. Same as a cancer patient we'll call "Bob". Bob has cancer, cancer doesn't have Bob. Cancer isn't the one married, doesn't have children, doesn't have a job, hobbies....cancer may be an unfortunate part of Bob, but Bob is still his own person.

Same as some people with diabetes 2...we call them diabetic...I see that as a wrong term. If they watch their diet and exercise, they can beat it. I know a few people that did. So they are people "with" diabetes"...

Same goes for this Mr. S...you are NOT "porn" or whatever you want to put here. You are a Mr. that is struggling with it, so you need a "diet", "exercise", and "discipline". Eventually, you will beat your diabetes.

It's going to take a lot of work and discipline to ignore the lies and to tell them to pound sand. And just because you get invited to a party in the midst of your fight, and you have a piece of cake, doesn't mean you're heading south (to refer back to my illustration of a few weeks ago), it means you took a break (whether you should have or not, not my call to judge), then pack up your tent, and keep moving north.

I have NEVER heard of someone getting diabetes with just one slice of cake. They got it by eating the entire cake, every day,for months. Then if they quit cake, and go keto, they can reduce their insulin resistance and kick diabetes to the curb. Discipline, is key.

You have to look at the end goal, not the frequent failures.

UKGuy

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #164 on: August 24, 2020, 08:36:03 AM »
Bang on Rookie. Wise words.
Mr S - the incident with the journal must have been very painful for you and I can sense it still is.
As for my 'low point' - I am a worrier, a catastrophiser. Big time. The outside world wouldn't know but my wife knows and so do I. 9 years ago, we were living in Sydney. I had just started to explore the world of 'interactive' porn - in that I was communicating with others for the first time rather than just looking at pics/vids. Not necessarily chat, but messaging and responding to pictures posted by willing 3rd parties on amateur sites. One woman captivated me - I can't even remember what I did/said/sent now (honestly), but whatever it was, I became obsessed with the thought that I would somehow get into trouble for obscene communications. Of course I wouldn't (not least because what I did wasn't illegal, plus I now know that there are millions of 'dick pix' etc flying around the internet each hour of the day.) But the thought took root, and I became terrified that there would be consequences and even a visit from the police. Whilst this seems utterly ridiculous to write now, it was very real. To make matters worse, I was flying back to the UK to meet some friends for a big soccer game - first time my team had been in the FA Cup final for 30 years. What should have been a brilliant trip was utterly dominated by my rapidly increasing fear and paranoia, mixed with guilt and shame....but mostly the fear (of being found out). I'd also drunk a fair bit of alcohol throughout the trip, which didn't help, and I got to the point where I was completely frozen with worry, stress, anxiety etc. So what did I do?...I called my wife in Aus from the UK and confessed all. Problem solved (albeit somewhat selfishly). To be fair, she was brilliant (as she always is), but of course I still occasionally remember what happened and immediately feel that pang of embarrassment and humiliation - about my act, about my inability to deal with it, about how daft it seems now. It may be that you feel a similar way when you think back about what was exposed in that diary. Perhaps an added pain is that your situation was actually worse as it was born out of malice on the part of your wife, but as Rookie says...those words in the journal, whatever they were weren't YOU...they reflected an aspect of you, and I assume that they were written in a way that reflected your desire to improve that aspect of your life? Even though my wife forgave me and had immediate perspective, I had to forgive and accept myself (including for the many other occasions afterwards where the behaviour was repeated and became normalised for me).
You say "I'm asking for caring that I don't give myself, advice that I can't give others, and asking you guys to open your ears to someone that feels like he has nothing to offer." Let's assume this is true for the moment (I don't think the last part is, incidentally). Why do we indulge Mr Slurps? Well I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself....
I believe in you. You are authentic. You have humility. You are a good man. (Plus you are smart and funny) I am willing to invest in you because I believe that even though the outcome is not guaranteed, there is a kernal of potential inside Mr Slurps and even though I've never met you, and most probably never will, seeing that kernal spark into life and become an unstoppably force of growth within you would make me very, very satisfied. In short, you are worth it. What you need to do now is start to believe that yourself, and learn to give yourself that caring that you currently withhold from yourself. Re-read Rookie's words. You are not porn, you are not those pages of your journal, you are not your past mistakes. Don't let them define you and limit your potential and happiness. That, if it happens, is a choice. Your choice. Choose better. You deserve it my friend.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 08:38:52 AM by UKGuy »

Rookie

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #165 on: August 24, 2020, 11:27:43 PM »
Bang on Rookie. Wise words.
Mr S - the incident with the journal must have been very painful for you and I can sense it still is.
As for my 'low point' - I am a worrier, a catastrophiser. Big time. The outside world wouldn't know but my wife knows and so do I. 9 years ago, we were living in Sydney. I had just started to explore the world of 'interactive' porn - in that I was communicating with others for the first time rather than just looking at pics/vids. Not necessarily chat, but messaging and responding to pictures posted by willing 3rd parties on amateur sites. One woman captivated me - I can't even remember what I did/said/sent now (honestly), but whatever it was, I became obsessed with the thought that I would somehow get into trouble for obscene communications. Of course I wouldn't (not least because what I did wasn't illegal, plus I now know that there are millions of 'dick pix' etc flying around the internet each hour of the day.) But the thought took root, and I became terrified that there would be consequences and even a visit from the police. Whilst this seems utterly ridiculous to write now, it was very real. To make matters worse, I was flying back to the UK to meet some friends for a big soccer game - first time my team had been in the FA Cup final for 30 years. What should have been a brilliant trip was utterly dominated by my rapidly increasing fear and paranoia, mixed with guilt and shame....but mostly the fear (of being found out). I'd also drunk a fair bit of alcohol throughout the trip, which didn't help, and I got to the point where I was completely frozen with worry, stress, anxiety etc. So what did I do?...I called my wife in Aus from the UK and confessed all. Problem solved (albeit somewhat selfishly). To be fair, she was brilliant (as she always is), but of course I still occasionally remember what happened and immediately feel that pang of embarrassment and humiliation - about my act, about my inability to deal with it, about how daft it seems now. It may be that you feel a similar way when you think back about what was exposed in that diary. Perhaps an added pain is that your situation was actually worse as it was born out of malice on the part of your wife, but as Rookie says...those words in the journal, whatever they were weren't YOU...they reflected an aspect of you, and I assume that they were written in a way that reflected your desire to improve that aspect of your life? Even though my wife forgave me and had immediate perspective, I had to forgive and accept myself (including for the many other occasions afterwards where the behaviour was repeated and became normalised for me).
You say "I'm asking for caring that I don't give myself, advice that I can't give others, and asking you guys to open your ears to someone that feels like he has nothing to offer." Let's assume this is true for the moment (I don't think the last part is, incidentally). Why do we indulge Mr Slurps? Well I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself....
I believe in you. You are authentic. You have humility. You are a good man. (Plus you are smart and funny) I am willing to invest in you because I believe that even though the outcome is not guaranteed, there is a kernal of potential inside Mr Slurps and even though I've never met you, and most probably never will, seeing that kernal spark into life and become an unstoppably force of growth within you would make me very, very satisfied. In short, you are worth it. What you need to do now is start to believe that yourself, and learn to give yourself that caring that you currently withhold from yourself. Re-read Rookie's words. You are not porn, you are not those pages of your journal, you are not your past mistakes. Don't let them define you and limit your potential and happiness. That, if it happens, is a choice. Your choice. Choose better. You deserve it my friend.

I would have broken this down in a few paragraphs, lol

mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #166 on: August 25, 2020, 06:04:07 AM »
Hiya Rook, UK,  I got a day under my belt. Day #1.
You guys really came through for me.  I think I'll always remember your generosity.
For years I was on a cemetery committee. I know it sounds creepy but it's not.  After doing dozens of funerals:  helping the backhoe guy dig a straight hole, lower the crypt, set up around the grave, lower the casket, shovel the dirt, direct parking, etc., if you're not grieving it is almost enjoyable because you're helping others to pay respects, grieve, pray... And because it is volunteer we act with respect and don't throw cigarettes in the grave and talk during the service. (I could tell some funny stories but I won't.) 
Why did I go off on that?  It is said that that act of burying another is the greatest service because you can never be thanked for it. You guys reminded me of that by what you did.
You're right Rook, I'm not porn, there's lots more to me. I get caught up in that whirlwind of emotions- fear, disappointment, shame and frustration. Then I feel worthless.
What I'm trying to do is separate the actual addiction- unable to stop jerking off to porn- from the consequent emotions. This is a revelation for me.
When I look at the actual addiction minus all the negative emotions, it loses some of its teeth. Yeah there is still a slimy feeling because it's isolating and bad in our society, but it stops being horrific.
UK I think a lot of this is because I've been meditating. Those are negative emotions but by their very nature, they pass.
By not identifying myself as a porn addict, I am just a handsome guy that over-indulges in porn. The emotions are not "me" either. It's letting me shed some of the desperation that engenders the spiral down.
UK I feel bad that you were a tortured soul for a while. Probably a byproduct of porn addiction. I've been struggling to find something positive in my addiction but I haven't yet. (I think it may be not to judge myself or others harshly.) But with you I see a positive benefit. You've learned to trust/love another at a deeper level and have gained the courage to divulge despite shame.

ShadeTrenicin

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #167 on: August 30, 2020, 02:37:53 PM »
Hey Mr.Slurps it's been a while since we've heard from you? Hows things going over there?


Let us know buddy!
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Love yourself; allow your emotions, understand your emotions and make love for yourself your number one priority

http://www.rebootnation.org/forum/index.php?topic=17919.0

mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #168 on: August 31, 2020, 01:21:43 AM »
Hi Shade,   Day #1.   I got another 6 day streak then relapsed for 2.  Looks like a pattern- drink Friday night, hung over, sleep late, get off rhythm, jerk off.
So I'm going to cut back to 2-3 glasses of wine and get to sleep earlier. 
Maybe if I can get a full week clean I can build on that.
How are you doing Shade?

Leonidas

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #169 on: August 31, 2020, 02:07:18 PM »
I have an eerie feeling (cue in macabre soundtrack on damp October night...) that lack of sleep is more common a problem than we'd like to give it credit.  From a quick tally of my own observations, it seems that at least 90% of my relapses have come from a combo of sleeping past 1am and getting 6 hours or less of sleep.

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #170 on: August 31, 2020, 04:28:52 PM »
I agree Leonidas, I know for me sleep has been a huge factor in my recovery. I used to stay up until 1 or even 2 in the morning surfing the web mindlessly. I'd PMO at some point in there and still stay up, probably avoiding that time where I am alone with my thoughts and have to face the music. Now I go to bed (and read a bit too long) but I'm getting more sleep in general and it's so good for just about everything. My resolve, my focus, my body; all of it. Lack of sleep sets us up for a lot of trouble.

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #171 on: September 06, 2020, 02:30:27 AM »
Hi Leo and TheNorm,   You guys hit on something.
Day # 0.  Had 5 days clean, then as usual Friday I drink a bit too much and stay up late and Saturday I sleep in then relapse.  Of course there is always some extraneous thing to blame.  My date cancelled, my boss pissed me off...
And with Covid it's hard to just go sit and have a coffee (tea if you're a Brit lol).
So, I'm open to suggestions re what to do next Saturday.
I hope you all are well and fighting the good fight.

ShadeTrenicin

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #172 on: September 06, 2020, 05:00:53 AM »
Hey Bud,

I think I can be very simple and direct and say; Do not drink alcohol next Friday, sleep in a little but with an alarm clock and make plans for Saturday.

Good luck buddy! 
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Love yourself; allow your emotions, understand your emotions and make love for yourself your number one priority

http://www.rebootnation.org/forum/index.php?topic=17919.0

ShadeTrenicin

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #173 on: September 14, 2020, 01:27:18 PM »
Hey Buddy, how did your weekend go? Let us know please, we care  ;)
--------
Love yourself; allow your emotions, understand your emotions and make love for yourself your number one priority

http://www.rebootnation.org/forum/index.php?topic=17919.0

mr.slurps

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Re: Ex-edger
« Reply #174 on: September 18, 2020, 05:38:17 PM »
Day #6* (no porn) Finally my hamstring and side muscles are healing. I hope you guys are well and kicking the living crap out of pmo.