Enlightening work on the Character Disorder of Lying

[stillme]

I have been doing some truly fascinating reading of the work of Dr. George Simon and all I can say is, "Wow!" The premise is helping to understand the nature of disordered people and how hard it is to have a successful relationship with a disordered person. Like many people here, the biggest issue I had with my husband wasn't his porn use, it was his long track record of lying regarding his porn use. The lying and deception started to run incredibly deep and as I looked back over the history of our thirteen year marriage, I saw that lying started well before porn. One of the biggest lies he told was his that he wasn't the 'type of guy' to use porn, even though he had a subscription to playboy in college. Looking at porn wasn't a deal breaker for me, so there wasn't a reason to lie and say he didn't use it. But, his lies weren't always about porn.

Dr. Simon deals extensively with people that have Character Disorders. Basically, there is some level of damage there that no matter how much the person wants to change, the behavior is so ingrained it is just a part of who they are. It is helping me to see that my husband was susceptible to porn addiction because he is a habitual liar. If he wasn't a habitual liar, he would not have been able to get addicted porn. He wouldn't have been sneaking it, lying about it, and lying about what he was doing with his time.

Now it is a matter of finding out if my husband is a habitual liar that is redeemable and able to change his ways, or if he really does have a Character Disorder and is a pathological liar. I know he 'wants' to stop lying. If he cannot, then he is pathological and disordered and that has very real ramifications. But, again, the reading has been absolutely fascinating and enlightening.

https://www.drgeorgesimon.com/habitual-liars-agendas/

[Numez]

It is helping me to see that my husband was susceptible to porn addiction because he is a habitual liar. If he wasn't a habitual liar, he would not have been able to get addicted porn.

are you saying that you must be habitual liar if you get addicted to porn?

its certainly more tempting to lie in a relationship because you think you gonna hurt your partner by telling her about your porn use, no matter how much she is okay with it. you also dont think that it is damaging (until you realize that porn is addictive and causing trouble). i lied to my ex gf about porn use because i did not wanted her to think something of it and maybe because subconsciously i wanted to keep that dopamine fix topic undisturbed, but since i discovered that i have PIED and that porn is actually addictive and causing some trouble, now i tell everyone. now its a must for any potential girlfriend to know and accept this before we even try anything. if i knew back then that i was addicted (i was, i was just not having PIED yet), i would instantly told her and that would actually explain (as it explains now) some of my destructive actions that i had in that relationship.

i think if he keeps lying to you, you need to leave. its just not working, he is not ready to quit so you need to move on. maybe he realize then that there are more serious consequences for his actions but if not, you better move on if you want to be happy again. it may be more complicated than just leaving him (kids etc.) but out of 2 bad options you need to choose better one.

[stillme]

No, I am not saying one has to be a habitual liar to get addicted, only that being a habitual liar is what put my husband in a position where addiction was the likely outcome. Basically, if he were honest, it would have been significantly harder for him to get addicted to porn. I think lying is a factor in most addictions, even beyond porn. I also think it is hard for most people to get addicted to anything without lying being a major component.

I don't think people lie about porn use in order to not hurt their partner. I think people lie about porn use because they believe their partner will request they stop using porn, especially jacking off to porn. Watching porn wouldn't have been a deal breaker in the beginning of my relationship, jacking off while watching porn would absolutely be a deal breaker.

My husband hasn't used porn since d-day a year ago. This was confirmed with a polygraph test a while ago (because he has a history of lying). That is why I am considering the idea that he may be a pathological liar. His use of porn has stopped (as he no longer has PIED), but he still lies, often for no reason. Some things are failure to follow through with things. So, he will say he is going to do something. He doesn't do it, but doesn't admit he didn't do it until questioned about it. Other things are half truths or admitting to things after confronted, but not before. These were all components of his porn addiction and the idea was when porn was removed, the lying would also stop - because there was no reason to lie. Unfortunately, the character flaw of lying is still present, even though porn use and PMO have stopped.

[Emerald Blue]

Most partners here would say that the damage to their relationship came from their partner's lying, more so than any other aspect of the addiction behaviour.

I'm not saying for one moment that the porn and all the peripheral acting out isn't harmful to the relationship. It is, whether the partner knows (consciously) or not. Lying and deception add another dimension which is extremely destructive. Lying denies us (the partners) of the opportunity to act and decide on how we choose to live our lives. For a start, we don't even know we're living with an addict. We just wonder why we're living with a guy who's never interested in having sex. Even when I raised the subject he just shrugged and said he wasn't that interested in sex. I'm the first person to say porn isn't sex but masturbating to explicit videos of sec acts and going to strip bars doesn't quite align with "not really interested in sex". And of course I wasn't supposed to find out anyway. That's quite a big lie.

After d day it was just lie after lie, after lie, after lie. I thought naively that everything would be out in the open and we could talk about it like adults, but no. The charades he played out, and the barriers he would throw up, it all became a bit of a predictable routine. Instead of him becoming more willing to be open and truthful, his lying became more entrenched and he would become more aggressive or more sullen or whatever. The last discovery was not a serious one but was hurtful for reasons he couldn't seem to understand. If he'd just admitted to it, it would have been a relatively minor transgression. But no. He performed and performed. He did everything he could to avoid owning up and admitting to it, and so he didn't have to apologise either. When I asked an outright question he exploded, said he was refusing to answer my question and walked out. The damage created by that one incident, that one discovery of something relatively minor, told me that this man  can never be honest and created such a setback. Months of progress were undone in an instant and it took as many months again to heal from it. I had to completely rethink my own understanding of what recovery means for me.

The tragedy is that he didn't need to lie. Not on that occasion, not on any occasion. But he did.  All the way from d day. He disclosed practically nothing. A few pre internet admissions to buying porn videos, mags and strip bars, but this was all going back 20 years and was hardly relevant, although looking back it charts the development of his addiction.

The reason why I believe he lied was about having powerful and control. The other reason was image management. Since d day it's quite obvious that how he is perceived by others is far more important than he would admit. When I had the evidence of some of his activities but I asked him about it first, he lied very convincingly. I might have believed him if I didn't know any better. What an actor. He could look right at me and lie, he had the open hand gestures, the body language. But what a fucking liar. And how slippery he was with words. Un-be-fucking-lievable. If people say addicts lie because of shame, then these Oscar winning performances are what's really shameful. An absolute con artist. A confidence trickster - I really learned what that meant after d day.

I also agree with Stillme that this lying trait is so ingrained, these guys don't even know they're lying half the time. My husband lies about all sorts of things that aren't even worth lying about. I honestly believe it's a power trip and they can't let go. They must have even the tiniest bit of power no matter what. To answer a question truthfully really does mean giving way to someone when he doesn't want to. Stupid? Yes. Absolutely.

OK, to NN. Quitting the relationship isn't what I want because so far he's been porn free since d day and he's made significant changes in his life. The recovery of our relationship isn't textbook perfect but nobody's ever is. He doesn't understand trust or at least he didn't for a long time. He seemed to believe that trust is something I should bestow on him because he's the "Good Guy". He didn't realise trust is earned and in his case it was only borrowed for a long time after d day. Similarly with forgiveness. He thought he was either forgiven or not forgiven. He didn't get that it was a slow process and he wanted some sort of once-and-for-all absolution. In recovery terms he's been impatient about my needs, he's been reluctant to talk about what needs to be discussed and hasn't shown much empathy but this is all classic porn addict behaviour. He's done well with quitting and made tremendous progress in other respects so I can tolerate his character flaws. But just think how much easier it would have been if he could give up the lying.

[stillme]

EB,
That is where I am. I want to leave and I want to stay. I am proud of my husband and the progress he made with quitting porn. He really changed that aspect of his life around. At the same time, I have an absolute fear of his ability to deceive me. His ability to lie with such ease and intensively defend lies to the point where I literally question my sanity (thinking that 'something has to be going on' when he would deny it) - it petrifies me.

This is something that my husband honestly can't understand. He wants me to simply trust him because he isn't 'that guy' anymore. However, the only thing I have that he isn't 'that guy' is his word and some changed behaviors, other behaviors have stayed the same. He doesn't understand that his word means nothing to me.

Last night we were talking and he asked what I felt I needed and I told him honestly, "I do not trust you enough to tell you what I need to see to believe you are truly reformed." My fear is that he would simply use that information to image manage and pretend to be what I needed. What I did share with him was this excerpt from one of the articles from Dr. Simon:

"And more particularly, you have to avoid trying to judge intentions and motivations. When it comes to character, actions speak louder than words or assumed intensions. So what you want to know is how someone conducts him or herself, especially in relationships. We define personality by the way someone prefers to relate. And we judge character by the integrity someone displays in the way they relate. How they’ve related historically best predicts how they will eventually relate with you."

My husband has to come to terms with the fact that the only thing he will be judged by is what he does. His words have no meaning for me. I hate that I can't trust when he says, "I love you" or "I care about you" or even "I will be cooking dinner on Friday." The only way for me to know he is cooking dinner on Friday is for him to cook dinner on Friday. The only way for me to judge that he loves me is for him to show love - loving behavior, actions, and deeds.

What makes this such a hard relationship to maintain is because everyday is a crap shoot. When someone betrays you, I just don't think you ever fully recover from that. I don't think I will ever put my guard down. There will never be a time when his word is enough.

[Numez]

romantic/intimate relationships are supposed to be mostly fun. not being able to trust anything coming from your partner and feeling hopeless about it is not mostly fun. also this seems to be going on besides porn addiction, for a while. its easy for me to believe that i know what would i do because im not in your shoes, but you need to figure out for yourself what is the best option even if its not a great one.

[Emerald Blue]

romantic/intimate relationships are supposed to be mostly fun. not being able to trust anything coming from your partner and feeling hopeless about it is not mostly fun. also this seems to be going on besides porn addiction, for a while. its easy for me to believe that i know what would i do because im not in your shoes, but you need to figure out for yourself what is the best option even if its not a great one.

Romantic/intimate relationships are much more than "mostly fun". Yeah, sure when you're in that teen/early twenties carefree time of life but a long term relationship involves a lot more than just fun. I'm not saying the fun stops, far from it. A successful long term relationship involves being able to support one another through adversity, such as the loss of a parent, it involves being responsible for any kids, it means a lot of joint responsibility for putting food on the table and making sure the bills are paid and that sometimes means working longer hours and having less time for fun. If you expect your relationships to be "mostly fun" you won't last beyond the early stages of courtship, I'm afraid. But as I stated above, none of this adult stuff rules out having fun. Just saying....

[Emerald Blue]

Stillme, I get what you're saying about not wanting your words and thoughts and feelings to be used to create yet another facade of "Who me? I'm Mr Good Guy (tm). I'd never do _____. I'm not even interested in _____." After this experience, you trust is something completely different. It's a whole new unfamiliar concept that you have to figure out from scratch. I came to the conclusion that it's about assessing the likelihood of whether or not something is truthful or not. Sometimes I think he does lie over things of little significance, but as it makes no material difference to me I can just roll my eyes. With regard to his previous acting out behaviours I think there's a fairly high likelihood of undisclosed lies but at this stage I don't believe it would affect the outcome of any of the decisions I've made so far. I've played out various "what if" scenarios in my mind and mulled over the impact it would have on our current situation and progress since d day. It's a tough one because when you've been blindsided there's always an element that something went on that never occurred to you. On the other hand, there may well be suspicions that are completely unfounded. But why have I had to think the unthinkable? Because he lied! He didn't have to, but he lied anyway. If he can lie about his porn use he's certainly not suddenly going to become Mr Honest over more serious transgressions. Not very likely, is it?

I have developed a sort of tolerance for ambiguity, and for "not knowing". It's part of what trust means now. Sometimes I hear him make certain statements and I KNOW when it's image management. I know it's about him controlling my perceptions of him. But uh-oh! I'm wise to that now. And you know what? He was the one who taught me how to spot it. He doesn't know it, but my memory now has a lot of reference points that go back to not so much the false statements but the misleading narrative he constructed in order to lead me to believe his opinion was *this* so that I wouldn't suspect him of doing *that*. Call it manipulation, call it image management, call it controlling someone's perceptions. It's not a "lie" but an invitation for me to construct my beliefs and assumptions about a situation which does not accurately reflect HIS reality and HIS intention to act out of keeping with the false narrative he wants me to believe in. It's a very, very sophisticated way of operating a deception.

It's tough, but trust is something different now. It has to be. Remember, we've been taught by the masters, lol. There are a couple of interesting talks about lying on TED. In the early months after d day I had to actually fathom all this lying so I read up about it too. The opposite of deception isn't truth. The opposite of deception is psychological self defence against lying.

[stillme]

I can definitely understand people not wanting to know all the details. My personality is such that I absolutely must know what I am dealing with. I also wanted complete assurance that no legal lines had been crossed. Once we had full disclosure, it also helped me understand the full timeline of events. This was particularly helpful because it showed that I was extremely attuned to his changes and how the addiction began to escalate. I had kept emails that I had sent him reaching out to him and letting him know things felt 'off' and asking if we needed counseling or if he would even like to attend individual counseling. I would be really open and honest about feeling something wasn't 'right'. He would then "assure" me that everything was completely fine and nothing was going on - basically gas-lighting me and making me feel crazy. Knowing the timeline has really helped me to better trust my gut.

I also didn't want him to be able to hide behind platitudes or words that didn't have concrete meaning. For instance, I put webcam girls and chatting in a different category than viewing porn. And cam-to-cam sessions and Snapchat exchanges in a different category that webcam sessions. So, he couldn't just throw out "porn use". When you are chatting back and forth, requesting and paying for women to perform specific acts, I think that crosses the line and I absolutely put cam-to-cam sessions in the category of cheating. Of course, getting a blow job in a massage parlor meant I required him to be tested for sexually transmitted diseases. Again, our journey is very different than others. I was shocked when I found out my husband had went to a massage parlor and would not have believed it. But, he was forced to tell the truth and that let me know that I needed to not only protect myself mentally and emotionally, but physically by ensuring he did not pick up any sexually transmitted diseases/infections. Sure it was only one visit, but it only takes one visit to pick up a life threatening or non-curable disease.

So, porn wasn't my husband's only issue. It was the trigger to his downward spiral, but he didn't stop at simply jacking off to watching porn. He moved on to interactions with chat sessions and then on to more things. So, that is why full disclosure was absolutely necessary on my end. And, because he went so far, but could still keep a relatively straight face is why I can never see myself fully trusting him again.