Abstaining versus Recovery

I have to say I have really been learning a lot from my counseling sessions. If any partner is wondering if counseling is worth it - YES! But, make sure you find a counselor that knows what they are doing. Find one that sees your experience as trauma based and not one that blames you for being 'co-dependent'.

Anyway, we had a talk about what a partner needed to see, consistently, to know if their spouse was truly in recovery for porn addiction/sexual addiction or whether they were simply abstaining from porn and sexual acting out. I am not going to post what those three things are since we know porn addicts are very manipulative and some will simply read this post and fake it for their partner. If you would like to know the three things, feel free to send me an PM.

It was very helpful because I saw that my husband had two of the three. It really and truly helped me see where he was in 'recovery'. I still haven't told him what the other was, but I think he is getting close to it. Thankfully he is searching for a new individual therapist and starting a real group therapy program. My therapist is also willing to work with whomever his therapist is to schedule a therapeutic disclosure session and will eventually invite my husband to some of my sessions.

I think one big thing with a lot of us as partners is that our husbands are NOT in recovery, or not fully in recovery. They are, in fact, abstaining from acting out. This is why the connection is still broke, why trust is not being effectively rebuilt, and why we are waiting for the 'other shoe to drop'. They are NOT in true recovery and as a result, it is reasonable to assume that relapse is possible. They are using will power, but will power is weakened if there is stress or trauma. We know they are only one argument or bad day away from relapse and we are uneasy.

It is becoming clear that my emotional turmoil was knowing my husband wasn't quite at recovery, even though he thought he was. He assumed that because he was in counseling (with a counselor that was NOT qualified to deal with sex addiction) and that he had not relapsed (has been almost six months with no relapse) he was fine. He is now coming to terms with the fact that he has a lot more work today. He discovered himself that third element he was missing (even though I did not confirm for him that he was close). He realizes he needs specialized help from people that know what they are doing because he wants true recovery, even if that means long term counseling and managing things for his lifetime.

The 90 day reboot is like getting an emergency inhaler or putting emergency comprehension on a wound. It is absolutely vital to stop the active bleeding. If men never do the 90 day reboot, they will absolutely have little to no chance of recovery. However, trying to live off that emergency treatment is the problem. If you have a deep wound and just put on a bandage - you would will never recover. Whenever the bandage is taken off it will start bleeding again. They have to sit there and hold it and hold it and hold it knowing that it is still bleeding. That is why our partners are so on edge as well - no matter how calm they appear they know they are holding that bandage on for dear life. They know if they remove that bandage (i.e. net nanny or giving us their passwords or only using the computer when someone is in the room) - they will go right back to bleeding (porn, acting out). They have got to go on to do the work of repairing the wound. First by cleaning it out (true, full disclosure), then applying ointment (counseling, dealing the root issues), then sewing it up (real lifestyle change and actively and truly rebuilding the marriage and trust). Like all deep wounds it will leave a scar for life, but at least everyone (you and him) can see that healing is taking place. Right now, in abstinence, we can all see they are not healed. Hopefully each of our partners will see their need for true recovery rather than simply holding an ever soiled rage to a still bleeding wound.

I agree 100% that it takes more than abstinence to recover from porn addiction. OK, the obvious thing is that no recovery can occur whilst the addict is still actively engaging in the behavior so stopping has to be the first step. True recovery takes a lot more.

I would also agree that a lot of my feelings of emotional distress are coming from the 'undisclosed', the gut feel versus the parts of the story that I actually know. My husband was not honest about his behavior and the only way I could get a more accurate picture was from going through every device he owned, but he was pretty good at making sure there he left no breadcrumb trail for me to find. I suspect that what I found he had actually paid for, but even then he disguised them and changed the file extensions so that they would look like benign office documents but a word processing document that won't open and has a file size of 400MB? Well, he didn't fool me. I rumbled that little trick quite easily.

If anyone wants to learn all the little tricks guys use to hide their porn, just do a google and you'll find a tech site that tells you all the ways you can "keep your files safe from prying eyes". All you have to do is do them in reverse. Practice with your own files on your own computer first, if you have your own laptop, and then you'll get fluent with these methods.


Despite my detective work, I am still left with that feeling of unease about only knowing part of the story, and this is where it gets really difficult. I have told him that the opportunity exists for him to tell me anything he did not feel comfortable about telling me, and if I was to suspend my disbelief and accept that he really did 'forget' acting out - and that his memory does not actually have an optional on/off switch - then I have given him the time and space to do so. I know about some of the p subs from info on his computer but he won't admit to it, although I'm prepared to let it go as it's fairly minor and not worth the stress. I've also told him how I feel, that I have sensed there is more, but he won't say a word. Yet we all know that porn addicts (and sex addicts) don't tell their partners "everything". We know that some will disclose more once they feel their relationship is more stable. That hasn't happened in my situation. I still don't think he has quit lying. In fact, I know he would rather say nothing and if he doesn't have the option of saying nothing, he will lie. In that respect nothing has changed, and that's why I feel there's a bit of white knuckling still going on.

He's done well, but there's still that 10% of himself that hasn't fully integrated. One of the most difficult parts to overcome is this shame/guilt thing and also this weird distaste and disapproval about porn ? but aren't these the classic red flags, that shame is often the driver of sex and porn addiction? He was intensely hypocritical about sexualised imagery everywhere, adopting the moral high ground, yet he was secretly watching it and using to feed his sexual arousal. So, how genuine is his distaste for all this stuff now? Is it just the same old hypocrisy because when I think about it, it was his hypocrisy that manipulated me into believing that this was a man who wouldn't do xyz because I took his words at face value....

Now i'm in the situation of trying to learn the role of shame in the addiction, if only because i see it written everywhere that shame is like the driving force and has to be dealt with properly to truly recover, but it never made a lot of sense. You know, why do something you dislike (or go to great lengths to say you dislike)? I don't get it. Just like I didn't get "it's not personal". Of course, it's HIS recovery and it's HIS behavior, and it's HIS responsibility. Not mine. But just like I had to get a handle on the dopamine/pathways/reward understanding of addiction, I also need to understand shame, and right now it doesn't make any sense why anyone would do something based on shame because you'd think it would actually STOP someone from acting out. But I'm just a partner. What would I know?

Hello stillme,

I tried to PM you about 3 thing that make difference between abstinence and recovery, but I am on your block list probably based on some of my previous posts or maybe just because I am PA. Even so I would be very grateful if you would be willing to share them with me, so I compare them with everything I know about being in recovery. But I understand if you don't want to share them with me.

Stillme I tried to PM you as well but it says I'm blocked maybe you have everyone blocked?

Not trying to start an argument,  debate or anything like that. I just want to share as a PA how shame works from my experience. When I have shame, it tells me I'm a bad person and not worth anything. Eventually the inner critic from the shame causes me to believe I'm bad and worthless. Once I feel that way, I feel 100% convinced and that is what has  driven me back to relapse or what have you. The brains rationalization of this is "I'm a bad and worthless piece of shit, so how could relapsing make anything worse since im already a failure from the start." Once your self image is shit, it's extremely difficult to overcome that.

Shame of course is only one possible cause of the problem. In most cases in my opinion, porn is a symptom of a much deeper problem that is causing immense pain and destroying someone's self esteem. For me, after being rejected so many times and being told I was "too nice", I wholeheartedly gave up on relationships and even being friends with people to the point where one day I looked around and had not one single friend or anyone in my life. Not only that, but all of my passions and dreams died. Quite frankly, I felt like my soul died.

Thanks for explaining how it feels for you.

You are right, porn addiction is a very complex issue. In my husband's situation it is very likely to be rooted in childhood trauma, particularly attachment trauma, plus he grew up in a family with extreme problems that most families never experience and which nobody was allowed to talk about. So, hiding the truth and having shameful secrets was "normal" in that family.

My husband is probably a generation older than you are, and he's had a lot of positive experiences throughout his adult life. He knows he is not defined by his problem. It's more the case that he sees his behavior as "shameful" rather than himself as shameful. I have even lost patience with this attitude of shame, perhaps unkindly, but I'm like "I know what porn is. I know what masturbation is. I know what men do when they leave ok at porn. So can't we get past this?" He also feels bad for wrecking our marriage and dragging me into the pit of despair, and although I have forgiven his porn addiction and associated behaviors he still can't let up on it. I suspect there are more layers of complication that I have yet to understand.

Any time.

To be completely honest that sounds a lot like my situation is similar. I don't know to what extent but experiencing trauma as a child in my opinion has a much longer lasting impact.

It's a great thing that he is able to separate himself from his addiction. I don't think I'm at that point yet no matter how much I strive to be. I understand the shame regarding his behavior 100%. I think it's important to distinguish guilt from shame at times. Sometimes in different situations when you feel guilt it's actually shame because it won't go away and sometimes you feel shame but in reality it's guilt which is temporary but if relapsing is happening left and right it doesn't go away either. I think it's good to feel guilt because that is your brains way of telling you you did something wrong. Shame however can be very deadly and hard to shake. I think when shame latches onto you, you kind of lose your sense of self and lose sight of what you value and.believe in. I strive to be at a point where I have a firm hold and understanding of my beliefs and what I believe in. I think if someone can reach that point, their beliefs will start to permeate into their actions and help them quit for good.

Sorry everyone, apparently my settings don't let anyone PM!

The three areas are:

Openness - they are not only open in conversation, but with every aspect. Freely sharing all passwords, where they go, who they are with, etc. There is no area of they are not willing to disclose, nothing is off limits for their partner to know. They are honest and transparent.

Humility - they are humble and mild in their dealings with their partner. They don't respond with arrogance or blaming or excuse making.

Brokenness - they are completely broken over what harm they have done to their partner/family. Their main concern isn't about their own issue, but how they have affected the life of their partner and they seek vigilantly to restore their partner/family. This brokenness is not temporary or sporadic - it is consistent and sustained.

Thank you, that's very helpful, I shall make a note of them.

@ Emerald Blue

I think the answer lies in the concept of hyperfrontality and cravings- part of the physical brainchanges you experience during addiction. It shuts down parts of the prefontal cortex and significantly impair your decisionmaking, even to the point where you do stuff that you literaly know is fucking you up. In the moment of a relapse all the reasons why you shouldn't fall back in are, however, hidden from you. Your mind is bombardet with cravings and rationalisations for why it is okay and a promise of relief from the pain you feel.

And also, for every time an addict gives in, he has said no thousands of times. Quite literaly.

Here is a rather goofy but accurate short video on the topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkOl7QIXxlQ

Thanks for the mansplaining.

Are you the partner of a recovering porn addict? Or are you a porn addict who is in a long term relationship with someone who is having to deal with YOUR porn addiction? If you are in neither of these situations, why are you posting here? We aren't stupid. We've all been on YBOP to get the info. We've all bought the various books on porn and sex addiction. Most of us have sought counselling and therapy. We do actually know what we're dealing with. We don't need Porn Addiction 101 class. We are here to heal OURSELVES and to heal our RELATIONSHIPS. There's a lot more to repairing a relationship than learning addiction theory. So what exactly is your purpose here if you are not here to fix your own relationship?

Lol. It wasn't mansplaining. It was refering to this paragraph:

"Now i'm in the situation of trying to learn the role of shame in the addiction, if only because i see it written everywhere that shame is like the driving force and has to be dealt with properly to truly recover, but it never made a lot of sense. You know, why do something you dislike (or go to great lengths to say you dislike)? I don't get it."

First of all, you never know how much other people on this forum know. A lot of people haven't covered the basics. It wasn't ment to be condescending. Second of all, even if you know the science, I think it can be difficult to wrap your mind around how these things appear to an addict. Especially in those moment where you relapse, which is what I hoped to help clarify. That was my intention, anyways.

And what difference does my personal situation make if I'm just trying to help?

Emerald Blue said:

Thanks for the mansplaining.

Are you the partner of a recovering porn addict? Or are you a porn addict who is in a long term relationship with someone who is having to deal with YOUR porn addiction? If you are in neither of these situations, why are you posting here? We aren't stupid. We've all been on YBOP to get the info. We've all bought the various books on porn and sex addiction. Most of us have sought counselling and therapy. We do actually know what we're dealing with. We don't need Porn Addiction 101 class. We are here to heal OURSELVES and to heal our RELATIONSHIPS. There's a lot more to repairing a relationship than learning addiction theory. So what exactly is your purpose here if you are not here to fix your own relationship?

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Yes to all of this.
It is getting a bit ridiculous that a conversation cannot go on for a day before we are bombarded with all the things we 'obviously don't know'. I can almost guarantee that every partner here has researched porn addiction a thousand times more than any porn addict here has researched what their porn addiction did to their partner.
We GET porn addiction. How many books have any of them read on being a partner of a porn/sex addict? How many blogs have they visited? How many have researched what the therapy of a partner of a porn/sex addict is like? How many have researched how many resources (MONEY, TIME, EMOTIONAL ENERGY) are required of a partner of a recovering porn addict?
If they put 1/10 of the effort into researching the perspective of the partner of the porn addict than trying to justify or minimize the effects their addiction has caused on not only their spouse, but their children (if the have them) and overall family unit that they put into trying to browbeat partners (their own and others) I am sure their own recoveries would be much further along.
If you are NOT a partner, please don't comment unless and until you have done some research on the effect YOUR addiction has on those you claim you love. There are plenty of books, blogs, resources, etc. that every partner has utilized to learn about porn/sex addiction. We get it. In fact, we have probably done more research on the addiction than some of the addicts doing posting.
So if you aren't a partner, please provide some background data that supports the points you are claiming to make. Because, right now it appears you are exhibiting behaviors typical of addicts (gas lighting, denying, blame shifting, minimizing). I could be wrong in that assessment, to better figure out which of us is wrong, please cite your sources.

yesyes1234, I accept that my tone may have been a bit harsh. I realise that you've probably had to work fucking hard to overcome your difficulties with porn and I can also understand the relief it probably feels when you find all the research that explains "wow! Now I get why I'm caught up in this crazy cycle of behavior". Look, if it works for you then go for it. Whatever it takes right? It was only when my husband read the info from YBOP that it all suddenly made sense and it was a genuine turning point for him. If it wasn't for YBOP I don't know where we'd be now.

Relationships are affected not just by acting out but by the disconnection that happens. At first there is a sort of depersonalisation that starts happening during sex, then ED, and then sexual anorexia. Porn addiction is both symptom and cause of many difficulties in a relationship. Partners have their own very distinct and separate recovery that bears no relation to an addict's recovery at least in the early stages, that is the first year.

It doesn't necessarily matter whether you are in a relationship or not if you want to post on the partners forum, but what we do best here is to share our perspectives on real life relationship problems which have arisen from our partners' porn and sex addictions. We don't dwell too much on morning wood and flatlines. It's more about how our partners behavior has affected how we feel about ourselves and our relationships, and how we can recover all the different parts of our lives that have been affected. Sometimes the addiction theory can seem like a moot point.

stillme said:

Emerald Blue said:

Thanks for the mansplaining.

Are you the partner of a recovering porn addict? Or are you a porn addict who is in a long term relationship with someone who is having to deal with YOUR porn addiction? If you are in neither of these situations, why are you posting here? We aren't stupid. We've all been on YBOP to get the info. We've all bought the various books on porn and sex addiction. Most of us have sought counselling and therapy. We do actually know what we're dealing with. We don't need Porn Addiction 101 class. We are here to heal OURSELVES and to heal our RELATIONSHIPS. There's a lot more to repairing a relationship than learning addiction theory. So what exactly is your purpose here if you are not here to fix your own relationship?

Click to expand...

Yes to all of this.
It is getting a bit ridiculous that a conversation cannot go on for a day before we are bombarded with all the things we 'obviously don't know'. I can almost guarantee that every partner here has researched porn addiction a thousand times more than any porn addict here has researched what their porn addiction did to their partner.
We GET porn addiction. How many books have any of them read on being a partner of a porn/sex addict? How many blogs have they visited? How many have researched what the therapy of a partner of a porn/sex addict is like? How many have researched how many resources (MONEY, TIME, EMOTIONAL ENERGY) are required of a partner of a recovering porn addict?
If they put 1/10 of the effort into researching the perspective of the partner of the porn addict than trying to justify or minimize the effects their addiction has caused on not only their spouse, but their children (if the have them) and overall family unit that they put into trying to browbeat partners (their own and others) I am sure their own recoveries would be much further along.
If you are NOT a partner, please don't comment unless and until you have done some research on the effect YOUR addiction has on those you claim you love. There are plenty of books, blogs, resources, etc. that every partner has utilized to learn about porn/sex addiction. We get it. In fact, we have probably done more research on the addiction than some of the addicts doing posting.
So if you aren't a partner, please provide some background data that supports the points you are claiming to make. Because, right now it appears you are exhibiting behaviors typical of addicts (gas lighting, denying, blame shifting, minimizing). I could be wrong in that assessment, to better figure out which of us is wrong, please cite your sources.

Click to expand...

It's very much the case that partner's do a lot more reading and researching not only about porn and sex addiction but also put in a lot of time and energy into reading and researching relationship difficulties, which porn addicts rarely admit to. We have to be considerate and sympathetic to THEIR emotional state in the aftermath of their porn addiction but we are pretty much left to our own devices. In many ways we become the sole caretaker for a relationship in crisis. And the irony is, none of it was our doing but clearing up the mess is what we have to do. Someone else's mess, not ours.

Again, it wasn't ment to be mansplaining. It just sounded like a genuine question where an addicts perspective could be helpful. And again, I don't know how much you know, but it's great to hear you've taken the time to research it properly. I can imagine it must be quite difficult to deal with an addict and doing what you can to understand his perspective is obviously a great thing.

My intention was to point to the actual thoughts that appear in an addicts mind, which is something I personally don't see discussed very often. The scientific aspect doesn't really show how things feel in the particular moment.

@ Emerald Blue

I get that. I wasn't trying to take anything away from that aspect of your conversation. It just seemed like you had some questions about the shame aspect and how it makes you relapse.

Maybe you could make a general guideline masterthread? It sounds like a lot of people confuse what you need.

This is interesting to me.  I think one of the points to be made is that as an SO we cannot know what is in our partner's mind.  We only know the effect it has had on us.  So it becomes kind of like a therapy exchange between two people:

Fred says something.  Susie is asked, what did you hear?  Susie says what she heard.  Then she is asked how does that make you feel? 

The difficulty is when Fred talks about the brain science he fails to address what Susie says she heard and how she feels.

We are here as partners trying to reconcile what we have  heard, seen, and felt. 

When we read the man forums, we are overwhelmed by the seeming lack of feeling for what the partner goes through. The majority of journals address:

Morning wood...lack of

Ed....can't get it up

DE...can't come

PE.....come too soon

PIED....uh oh

Have stress, bad day, wife on period, wife sick, wife does not...fill in the blank=must watch
porn

Hysterics.....if I tell this will happen

The last is the usual statement about wives that are in the journal.  That is the only mention that involves the partner.  Meanwhile, we do all this reading to keep our marriage intact.  Put on our game face and make it through our day.  Inside we feel like absolute shit.  And no one cares what we heard saw or felt about this because all the physical things are more important. 

I like men commenting here and encouraging us.  But by the time we have come here to this forum, we have self educated enough we should have 3 credit hours toward a college degree in Porn and its effects on the addict, the partner, the family and the marriage.

yesyes1234 said:

Maybe you could make a general guideline masterthread? It sounds like a lot of people confuse what you need.

Click to expand...

What's the confusion? We need a space where we can express ourselves and tell of our experiences without fear of ridicule or being told we're wrong. We are also here for mutual support, that is, partners of porn addicts helping other partners of porn addicts. Because we understand that there is very little support out there for the thousands of women who are suffering alone.

And what difference does my personal situation make if I'm just trying to help?

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If you aren't in a relationship with someone who suddenly finds themselves staring their partner's sexual addictions in the face, and having to readjust your entire perspective on your past, present and future then I would say that's a pretty major difference.

With regard to help, we have had individuals coming on here, men with porn addictions who are not in a relationship (nor do they stand snowballs chance in hell of being in a relationship), who want to offer their opinions but not in the spirit of support. Nor can they offer anything from the perspective of someone who understands. How could they? They don't have a clue.  So why does someone believe that they can "help" when they do not have the knowledge and experience do so?  I know you were well-meaning, but I do not believe that reading the theory on hyperfrontality provides much that is any use to me at this stage of recovery.  We are at the stage where communication skills, or lack of, has greater potential to block progress, not dopamine, not delta fos B, or any of that. I'm not saying that the addiction changes in the brain don't persist. I get that too.  But it's not the entire story.

Somebody mentioned being flooded with answers you already knew or you aren't really looking for. Maybe it would be a good idea to point it out in a masterthread? But anyways, it was just a suggestion.

Yeah, I got that from the other posts. And it's of course valid. Surely it shouldn't be assumed that a new contributor is a troll, though.