Am I In Denial?

Greetings.  Just registered.  This is my first post.  I am here not because I think I have a problem with porn or masturbation but because my wife says if I don?t stop watching porn and masturbating, she is considering leaving me.  She and I have been together since 1989 (32 years in May).  Not sure how to approach it.  I am 62 years old.  I have had a robust porn and masturbation habit on and off since I was 14 (that would be before broadband internet).  She is aware of all my porn and masturbation-related activities. 

She doesn?t like having sex for as long as I like to have sex, and she only really likes plain vanilla sex (in my opinion) whereas I like some things that don?t press her EASY button.  Therefore she has decided I must have a problem with porn and masturbation.  She feels I have porn/masturbation-induced Delayed Ejaculation.  I was not aware I had a problem.  I am not convinced I do, other than that my wife is considering leaving me.  Which is why I am here.

I have read Gary Wilson?s book, ?Your Brain on Porn? and perused the web site and resources, so I believe I am up to speed (even ordered the second edition this week to read on a road trip together, having lent our first edition to a friend for whom it did a huge amount of good).  I?m just unsure how much of what I?ve read really applies to me (I can hear your eyes rolling, but yeah), because it seems to be targeting much younger men questioning their own choices, who don?t have a lot of experience with females and can?t get it up.  These are not descriptions of me.

To be sure, I know there are men my age here, so I am assuming I am not the only one with the issues I?m facing.  Surely responses to this post will make helpful suggestions I have not considered.  I am looking forward to that.  Thanks in advance.

Much of your experience is the same as the rest of ours. I'm about to be 26 and I've been addicted since I was about 19. You definitely have a problem, especially considering your escapades are about to cost you a marriage of 3 decades. I don't blame you for these issues, most men are exposed to pornographic material at far too young of an age. The average age for a male in the US to first view hardcore porn online is 11 years old, before puberty even happens.

But your problem is much worse than most others. You've been addicted to porn for almost your entire life, and whether you believe it or not, your brain has been significantly altered because of it. I think you need to ask yourself how much your wife means to you and if you're willing to do anything to save your marriage. Quitting porn is a lifelong commitment to bettering yourself and it can't be taken lightly.

Thanks for weighing in, WoundedSparrow.  I understand I have a problem but I'm pretty sure it's not that I'm addicted to porn. Taking my wife along with me on the Reboot journey is going super-excellent, though, because there are no secrets (in an otherwise dark and secret-ridden corner of a man's life), and when we emerge from the other side we will undoubtedly be better off.

I'll bring together a couple other threads on this forum because they are all winding up in the same place - the best one is a thread I started called "How Old Are You" ending up with people telling me "You're in denial" which doesn't really answer my question about how old they are

So there are other users being polite about telling me I am in denial.  I don't think I'm in denial. HA - Maybe I'm in denial about being in denial!  But I digress....

I love you all, and I need your guidance:

• I have a modest habit
  • average of 53 minutes per day
    • measured accurately over a 210 day period
• I can control it
• I don't let it run my life
• I don't have withdrawal symptoms when I abstain
• My cock works
• I have a great time in bed with my wife multiple times a week
  • including erection with orgasm with ejaculation
  
  What am I missing?

This response below was originally started on thread called "P usage for an addict" started by @Bigox but a few of us started getting off topic so I have brought it over here to my own thread.

@Aussie and @anubu are we all here?  Good ....

I cannot stress enough that no offence is taken and I am fully aware that I am selfish.

I should state the obvious - "the older you get the more you realize you don't know."  That's not a comment about your relative youth.  On the contrary, it's me admitting I really don't know what to do.

You make an excellent case for recreational use, which seems like what we're talking about.  If sex is one of life's little pleasures (putting it mildly, given all the talk about how a human male's chief end is to perpetuate, etc), I'm am giving my wife the first right of refusal.  I am happy to masturbate over her and her alone.  But she doesn't want me to masturbate at all, and wants my pleasure to be over with as quickly as possible (she tells me this now, after 30 years).  That says a lot.  I'm pretty sure I didn't sign up for that.

She says that what she wants is normal.  Another unanswered question - what exactly is normal?

To put it another way, my mom is 88 and has had a great life.  She drinks maybe a little too much wine.  She's very happy and does not think she has a problem.  I don't personally believe she's an alcoholic.  One brother agrees with me, another brother disagrees and thinks we should do something.  Do we:

Say nothing because it does not really seem to be a problem?
Tell her drinking is bad and she must stop before it's too late?
Tell her it might be wise for her to cut back on her consumption?
Tell her we don't want her to do it?

So many questions.

Love you guys.

Murgatroyd, the question really is, can you leave porn behind and not suffer withdrawals and the urges to go back? If not then you're probably addicted.

My one line, non-scientific take.

Hey @akpal2, thanks for joining the conversation. 

Be advised that multiple people have already told me I come off like an arrogant prick, and I have already agreed with them.  So - don't take it personally.  I love you, man.

Aussie will roll his eyes when I say that your description could apply to how some people are about college football.  That is not meant to be an off-handed or otherwise dismissive remark.  Can I leave porn behind?  I think I can.  Like many others have said on this forum, leaving porn alone has been easier than they were expecting.

When you ask about withdrawals, I don't suffer the ones people talk about as being the hallmark withdrawal symptoms of porn addiction, but I have to admit I do miss it.  Do I have an urge to go back?  Yes, but I also have an urge to make love to my wife when she gets home from work.  Does that mean I am addicted to making love to my wife?  I could be.  Is it a bad thing?

Now you see how lost I am navigating this.

@Aussie - old buddy.  For the record, I'm not a Trumpster (talk about arrogant pricks!), but I am a capitalist.  Sometimes the menu is limited.  But we digress (and I can't tell you how much your question made me smile!).

GREAT anecdote about your grandmother.  You guys down under are made of such great and tough stuff.  Good on you!  (See, I know that idiom - I used to work for REPCO!  I had Aussiebosses.)

We are already in therapy.  Unfortunately where we live, the therapists we have available are not as strong as they have in big cities, when it comes to sex and porn.

I understand about libidos (in her case it's not really her libido, it's pain from intercourse caused, she says, by thinning of the tissues with age).  She and I already talk about meeting in the middle.  The problem is we apparently don't agree where the middle is, and she doesn't want to budge until I stop PMO.  So I did.  Because I love her and don't want to lose her.

As I have described, we continue to experiment and track data.  Day 55 today.  We are calling it "Phase 1 of the Reboot." at Day 90 we will reassess and consider what we might try differently for Phase 2, based on what we may have learned for Phase 1.  It is possible that I will be completely rebooted, I will feel like she gives me everything I think I need, and we will be finished.  I won't know until Day 90.  If I don't feel that way, then I'm pretty sure Phase 2 will be something like continuing to abstain for another 90 days and see what happens.

Check that link in my signature.  "The female price for male pleasure" is a very real thing, and, as it says, women have not stood up for themselves which has contributed to their predicament.  (The piece gives all kinds of reasons justifying this behavior - basically from the all men are assholes school of thought).  The result is, when your woman wakes up empowered one day, you're blindsided.  My wife has gotten empowered.  It's frightening and attractive at the same time!

murgatroyd, missing something doesn't mean you are addicted to it. If you can leave porn whenever you want and not return to it, then you are not addicted. But if you can't leave it aside without having a strong urge to go back and look, then you are. Makes sense?

However, it seems you might not be suffering from the more severe effects of porn that other users like myself are. Which is great.

  Good morning Murgatroyd

    I am male 49 with a 34 year long addiction    it took about 34 years to figure it out  and  almost 3 years to finally beat it  but I have won this battle  My wife did not know I was addicted  she new I surfed" a little porn") over the years.  She also knows I gave it up for my own reasons.
 
          Not so sure you have a full blown addiction  but rather a bad habit.  Quite frankly one of the motivations for me to give up porn  was the information coming out on the abuses that are happening in the industry  perhaps watch a ted talk on Youtube  called "lets talk porn" by Maria Ahlin
         
    In my case I began to  feel as if what my wife was into was boring also.  It was only after I  gave up the porn  did I begin to see I was a part of the problem.  Now with a clear head I also noticed how much of a power struggle there can be in a relationship. And How there can be control issues with either yourself or your partner and how difficult it can be to navigate these things.  Since giving up porn  I have begun to  look deeper into the level of intimacy  my wife required  or was capably of giving.  It hasn't been easy.  But  some things are slowly beginning to improve, but at the same time other issues are arising.  Giving up porn has allowed me  to  work my way around some of these issues.  Others I may not be able to  but in a marriage there must be some give and take.  I think at this point you may need to get 90 days or 120 days or something and see if your outlook changes. At that point perhaps re read some of what  is written about basically everything to do with porn. You might see some things in a different light

    Might be time for your wife to see the Dr. about a medical check up  There could be a medical issue  going on here on her part

    cheers

    Post often it helps me it helps you

Thanks @joepanic - your comments are appreciated.

There is definitely a place in my head hoping that I can turn over a new leaf and some kind of miraculous neurochemical transformation will just come along for the ride.

On the other hand, the logical one inside me just gets indigestion from the simple basics - she thinks I want more than I need, and she should only be on the hook for what I need.  But when I say I want more than she gives, her self-esteem takes a hit.  Rather than address the self-esteem (I have tried very hard to help her), she diverts the conversation to "you're psychologically ill - here look at all this stuff about what happens to your brain on porn."

I would be more inclined to compromise if she would own the possibility that she might also have some baggage.

My wife has seen the doctor.  The doctor says she is experiencing "thinning of the tissues with age."  When the doctor proposes treatments, my wife does not wish to pursue them, because she feels there are extenuating circumstances that make those treatments bad for her.  I don't expect her to risk osteoperosis just because I want to spend more time fucking her, but you'd think under those circumstances she might acknowledge she is making her own contribution to the situation.  Instead of owning her part in it, she is quick to divert to my porn habit.

[This note added later] My wife has been looking around at what I have been writing and she takes exception to that last paragraph, saying I am painting her badly.  She says two different doctors each told her that she is not a candidate for hormone replacement therapy.  My recollection was different.  I owe it to my wife to apologize for getting it wrong and to set the record straight.

So it sounds like you and I both sleuth around trying to second guess what our partners are actually thinking.

It's a good time to mention that when my wife says I want more than I need, she connects my level of want to my porn use, as if to say, "If you didn't use porn, you wouldn't want so much."

Whereas I can see that this could be true, maybe, it might bear further study, I am not at all convinced that is absolutely is true, as if somehow porn use has been shown to be directly proportional to desire with real partners. 

Please don't tell me all the findings about how porn seems to have caused unrealistic expectations in some consumers.  I read. 

All I want is more time between the sheets, face to face, naked, with loving and enthusiastic genital involvement.  That is not what those findings are talking about.

Also, my math was bad above when I said I was at Day 55.  Today Thursday January 28 is Day 54.  Guess I should get me one of them counters 

Love you all.  Searching for answers.

It is possible your wife is skirting around questions regarding her health . And I do say "possible" not that she is.  But  your tital to your journal leaves most of us confused I think.

    Are you in denial?  You wont know unless you do a complete reboot and see how you think and feel after that.

    In one  post you state that  your wife doesn't like having it as long as you do or its just vanilla sex  I take from this  statement that you are somewhat dissatisfied with your sex life with your wife?

  In a further down post  you than claim to have a great time in bed with your wife multiple times a week with erection  orgasm and ejaculation.

    To me this is beginning to sound like a power struggle  seeing as your wife has somewhat become empowered.

    Can we get some details on how your sex life was 10 years ago or 20 years ago or even at the time you met.

    Quite frankly it does sound more like your venting here and thats ok  sometimes it helps  In my personal journal I have done considerable venting.  I am also no longer addicted to pmo  I didnt really know how much of a problem it was till I got clean.

  Sorry I'm a bit all over the place here  but you are leaving a considerable amount of ground to cover  but  what is it you like that does not press her "easy button"

    Post often it helps me it helps you

@joepanic your writing gets high marks on the "this is useful" scale.  Much appreciated.  I appreciate all the points of view I am getting.  I apologize for the confusion, and I would prefer to keep questions in focus (like "Am I in Denial?") but the posts take on lives of their own, then off they go! in different directions.  In one case I moved a topic from one thread to another because it had morphed into something that fit better in a different place.  That explains some of the "going around in circles" - different guys asking me the same questions under different headings.  It has all somewhat melted down into one big public conversation about a bunch of stuff.  I have not started an actual journal.  I'm thinking a long exhaustive blast of Merg-blather could answer some questions, but I'm not sure people would read it.

I realize that much of my writing is not real porn-addict friendly.  Do I not belong here?  Getting asked to leave the forum because I apparently don't have a problem would take that arrow out of her quiver (ughghh did I say that out loud?  That does sound like a power struggle, you're right).  But only an actual arrogant prick would do that, and let's assume that is not the case.  I'm here to figure myself out, but I don't suffer the same symptoms that most of the other members of the Reboot Nation experience.  I continue to be grateful for all the ongoing conversations.

"In one post you state that your wife doesn't like having it as long as you do ... In a further down post you than claim to have a great time in bed with your wife multiple times a week..."

Both are true.  The sex I have with her is great.  I want more and she doesn't.  In the past one of my easy buttons has been to go jerk off to porn.  Now after 30 years she is saying that can't be one of the choices, and all the other choices are off the table. 

Therefore = What used to be easy is now no longer easy.

One possible conclusion could be that I am not so much addicted to porn as maybe I am actually a sex addict.  Could be.

As for reboot, you know I'm more than halfway through 90 days, and I am open to the possibility of going longer.  I would say I have put my money is where my mouth is, and I am serious when I say I am hoping to experience a miraculous neurochemical transformation as a result.  That could be a welcome game changer.  I am not expecting miracles, but I am pretty sure I will know more at the end of 90 days than I did before it started.

I don't want to get caught up weighing the ups and downs of the Porn industry.

"Can we get some details on how your sex life was 10 years ago or 20 years ago or even at the time you met?"

There are parts of the marriage / sex-life story that others will undoubtedly say are important and I am betting I will get accused of holding information back to make myself not look like an arrogant prick.  Nope - you know that is not the case Just nobody's asked yet.  Now that you've asked, I think I will take that opportunity to write a more comprehensive journal about myself, and answer your questions in there, and undoubtedly some others nobody has asked yet.

I'm coming up on a long weekend of intense focused effort, and I have to get prepared.  I think I will take the next 4 days off from the Reboot Nation and start that journal on Monday.

Cheers!

Murgs

Hey murgs

Your really giving a reboot a good go so well done for that,are you going hard mode?

Also the 90 days thing is a bit of a myth, or a guideline for guys so they know that usually recovery from years of neuro-fuckery takes a long time.

When I went 94 days hard mode...personally in a lot of ways I felt worse, anxiety still bad, depression and motivation still as bad as it was on day 30...I did feel as though the brain fog was slightly lifting. This was way back in 2012, I had people telling me It wasn?t porn, to go to a shrink etc...I?m pretty sure that contributed a lot to my relapse, especially when you see guys going say 60 days and hey presto...super powers. It?s such a pain in the ass to put all that mental effort in, day after long ass shitty day and get nothing back for it months later...that?s why this bullshit is so hard to quit. If it was 90 days and 100% recovered, the recovery rates would be super solid...unfortunately the recovery rates are low with porn, it?s a massive effort to see it through.

Some guys have taken over 12 months of hard mode to notice any benefits.

Aussie.

Dear Mr. M,
Good for you giving up porn for whatever the reason.  As a partner, I can tell you that encouraging a husband to walk away from porn is a mine field in our brain.  For a long time quick worked because there wasn?t enough time for him to conjure up some seen before scenario.  And eyes open was something that was important.  As time goes on, some things calm down, some do not for us.  Staring at other women was not cool.  I still do not like it, because it was a thing for him.  And please know, you can tell us how gorgeous we are etc.  but if you have chosen porn for so long, we will feel we weren?t good enough, attractive enough etc.  Simply because we weren?t the only one.  Talking and communication are key.  I have read your article at the end of your comments.  Very interesting reading.  Last note, if your wife says she has pain, believe her.  And it is not always easy to find a doctor that listens and helps.  Hang in there!

That?s exactly what I was trying to drum into him, his wife?s hurt by him masturbating over other women and feels as though she isn?t good enough for him. That?s not exactly going to get the bedroom sessions increased is it?

Also murgs reverse the situation, how would it make you feel if your wife was masturbating to porn looking at all these ripped up younger guys....

As promised - Journal started.  Go to the 40+ section.  It's called "Murgatroyd's Journal - The Rest of the Story" or something like that.  Not very original but to the point.

@joepanic - interesting comment about "power struggle."  My wife has started reading my posts last night (uh-oh) and said "I never thought it was a power struggle" but I was going to say you might be on to something.  Now she and I will ... struggle ... over it.

How interesting.

Murgs

Gracie said:

Dear Mr. M,
Good for you giving up porn for whatever the reason.  As a partner, I can tell you that encouraging a husband to walk away from porn is a mine field in our brain.  For a long time quick worked because there wasn?t enough time for him to conjure up some seen before scenario.  And eyes open was something that was important.  As time goes on, some things calm down, some do not for us.  Staring at other women was not cool.  I still do not like it, because it was a thing for him.  And please know, you can tell us how gorgeous we are etc.  but if you have chosen porn for so long, we will feel we weren?t good enough, attractive enough etc.  Simply because we weren?t the only one.  Talking and communication are key.  I have read your article at the end of your comments.  Very interesting reading.  Last note, if your wife says she has pain, believe her.  And it is not always easy to find a doctor that listens and helps.  Hang in there!

Click to expand...

Thanks @Gracie.  I appreciate your comments.  My wife already read them and is grateful to you. 

You seem to imply that I ignore or discount my wife's pain.  What is interesting is that whereas I don't believe I do, my wife agrees with you, that I do discount her pain.  I believe the day-to-day lifestyle choices in our marriage accommodate keeping her as pain-free as possible when it comes to pain caused by my penis.

With regard to my comment that her doctor informed her about a therapy for thinning tissues with age, my wife felt I painted her badly.  She says two different doctors each told her that she is not a candidate for hormone replacement therapy.  I didn't remember that, and I owe it to my wife to clarify it.

You may have seen my footer about this great piece "The Female Price of Male Pleasure."  The fact that women have endured pain on account of men is not a new idea, but not simple, either.  It is complex and steeped in what I would call, for lack of a better term, historical inertia.  It is a travesty?  Is it an abomination?  You bet it is.  The first step is recognizing that it is real.

We are messed up as a culture when we bombard ourselves with "no pain no gain" and "you should be able to go all night."  Certainly I have subscribed to these erroneous fallacies for my whole life until recently, aided by women who also say they agree with them.  The article is about how women have essentially given in to what men want through history, and it results in female pain, which they then grin and bear, thereby perpetuating the cycle.  The article makes a good case for why women have felt like they have to give in to men throughout history.

That's not good.  I hope you can see that I get all this.  It's a bad state of affairs.  I am trying to figure out what to do about it besides become a monk, you know?  I thought porn was a good way to not hurt my wife, = problem solved!  I can tell from your comments that you don't think I am correct.

If you have not seen my Journal I just posted yesterday, I'm giving you a heads-up that it will possibly make your brain explode in anger.  That said, I look forward to continuing this excellent streak of valuable dialogue.  Thanks in advance.

Murgs

Aussie_85 said:

Murgs - reverse the situation, how would it make you feel if your wife was masturbating to porn looking at all these ripped up younger guys....

Click to expand...

Love ya, @Aussie, but you're not furthering your case by assuming I would not like it if the shoe was on the other foot. 

I try really hard to not be a hypocrite.  A rule in my life is to never expect someone else to do something I would not do myself.  This rule has served me very well.

In your example above, I might just ask her if I could help in any way 

I'm being serious.  I'm not just saying that to save face.  I'm pretty sure if you were to ask my wife she would say, "Yeah, I know that about him, and it drives me crazy."  She would say it with exasperation and an eyeroll.  We are only coming to terms with a disparity in our sexual appetites after 30 years.  Porn is just caught up in it.

Choices:

• 1. Come to terms with it
• 2. Give up and throw in the towel

I am not ready to throw in the towel.  I'm a man.  But I can change.  If I have to.  I guess.  That said (the "Man's Prayer" from the Red Green Show), I'm hoping to change as little as possible.  Aren't we all?  Just calling it like it is.

Murgs