Author Topic: there is hope  (Read 16661 times)

hoopvol

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there is hope
« on: August 06, 2015, 08:30:09 AM »
First, I want to express my admiration for Gabe and his work on this site. It is very beneficial for us, to see that we are not alone and that this topic is being discussed so openly.

We have been married almost 20 years and have three beautiful, wonderful children. All the ingredients for a happy life. Lately, we are certainly working very hard, to find this happiness again.
Our story is quite long, but I will try to limit myself to the most important moments.
The first time that I found his hidden stash, I was devastated. My knight in shining armor fell from his horse. (is that an expression in English?) This was at a time in my life where I myself was not feeling too well: I had just given birth, we had just moved and because of that, I had to quit my job.. All this made that I was not the person I used to be. When I confronted him with my discovery, he said it was the first time and he was just curious. He later stated that he did it because he thought our relationship at that time was not really good. I was very disappointed that he was not talking to me about it, to find out what was going on, but he fled into porn. He promised me then that he wouldn’t do it again. The years that followed were a series of discoveries, confrontation, denial, excuses, sorry again and promises to never do it again. After the final confrontation (10 years ago) I came to the conclusion that this could not go on like this. It was tearing us apart. I turned to the Internet and looked for help. The only responses to questions from women in the same situation were: 1. You're a prude. Every (real) man is watching porn, it’s  healthy 2. He looks at porn, because you’re not giving him what he needs .... Work on yourself to be attractive to him so he does not need porn. I came to the conclusion, that is was because of me: it wasn’t a real problem, I made it a problem. Therefore, I made the decision to accept it as something that just belonged to him and  would never stop. It was impossible for me to accept it, so instead I chose to ignore it. Eight lonely years, I couldn’t talk to anyone about it (not even to him) I usually knew exactly when he was looking; you develop an extra sense. All intimacy slowly disappeared in those years. At first sex was less in quantity but also in quality. That was partly because of me too, because I could not enjoy the sex: I was always afraid to be compared with what he had seen on his screen. He started to avoid sex, and ultimately, all intimacy disappeared: a certain look, a little touch; we could not even look each other in the eyes anymore. To the outside world we were the perfect couple and that was often told to us. But they only saw a hollow shell. The ED was now a fact. I began to think that maybe he had a physical problem, or that he just could not make love to ME. When I found further evidence that he was surely capable of ejaculation, it was clear: he is not able to have sex with me.  That was the moment I felt the need to talk to him about it and I indicated to him that I knew he could not make love to me and (worse) I also understood him, because I was not attractive enough. (heart breaking, but that’s what it had finally done to me). He didn’t really react then; now I know, that is was very hard for him, because of the shame,  I turned to the internet for answers and more information about ED. And there it was in the top three of causes of ED: excessive consumption of porn. Then everything became clear to me! After many discussions and a month later he finally confessed: he was addicted and he had been using porn since the age of 12/13 yrs. That all happened 1,5 years ago and much has changed since. We went to a therapist together and a year later (after relaps) we went for the second time around. We now know that we have to do it largely on our own. I try to support him as much as possible and not to get angry during our conversations. About 6 months ago I saw a letter on the internet,(a wife wrote it to her partner)  which I could have written. I used this letter as a template for my own letter to my husband and gave this to him. The letter really touched him and it was also clear to him what had happened to me and more important: to us. With the letter I also gave him silver pendant containing a small note with the last words of my letter on it. He uses it as extra support: he holds the pendant, whenever he feels anxious. This really helps him.
I translated the letter (we are Dutch) and posted it as a reply so you know what I’m talking about. A few weeks later I received a letter from him with a pendant with a very loving  message inside. And this really helps me.

We watched Gabe’s video’s together and we decided that we both would register on this site. We feel, we can help others and by doing so, help ourselves as well. We’re not there yet, but we have come a long way. Now ,we don’t have sex anymore: we make love!
I want to end by saying again ,that I am very glad I found this site ... .. If it would have  been here 10 years ago, the past 10 years of our lives would have been very different.
I wish you all a lot of strength: it can be done!!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 09:02:39 AM by hoopvol »

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2015, 09:04:41 AM »
Letter to my husband:


I love you. You are the love of my life.

You are a companion and a wonderful father.

I love your warmth, your kindness, your helpfulness ...

But ....

Sometimes I want to run away screaming. Sometimes I do not want a relationship with any man, never again. I want to feel confident, to feel safe, dignified and beautiful. Once,  you made me feel that way.

Before I discovered your porn.

Before I realized what grip it has on you.

I've tried. I tried to accept it. I tried to ignore it. I tried to watch it with you. I hated it, but I loved you.

I tried to believe you when you say that I am the one that you want. I miss you, weep for you, as you look at a whole range of images of women with which I could never compete.

I tried to convince myself that it is nothing. I tried not to feel bad when I realize that you'd rather have sex with the fantasy in your head, then with the woman in your bed. I tried not to feel rejected.

I tried to convince myself that I was imagining things., that I overreacted. Attempting to believe, when you tried to convince me that there was nothing to worry about. It is a pity that I know your dear face too well.

I tried to feel sexy. Tried not to feel so awkward and uncomfortable. Tried not to think that my body is not good enough.

I tried to shrug my shoulders if you were interested in another woman, and gave her the attention I craved. Tried to believe that you really did not want anything with that person, but your actions showed otherwise.

But ...

I have also tried other things.

I tried to punish you. I tried by fight or silence.

I tried to look at you with disgust. I tried to hate you.


I've always tried to catch you. I went trough your phone, computer, and even checked our bedroom. Like a detective in in our own home.


I tried to talk to you, cried and shouted.

I tried to keep quiet.

I tried to think about a life without you.

I tried to imagine how the children would react if we were no longer together.

I'm so tired of trying.

I wish that you could really realize what porn is doing to us.

I wish you could understand that I often already know the answer when I ask your a question.

I wish that you could not lie so easily.

I wish we could just make the pain go away.

I sometimes wish I could go back in time and not fall in love with you, that we never started our life together.

But I can’t  disappoint you.

I can not leave you and I can not hurt you.

I sometimes feel so helpless and scared, weak and worthless, ugly, embarrassed, old, used, tired, sad and alone.

I love you; I want to be able to trust you.

I hope it all works out.

I hope that you can wrestle yourself free from the grip that porn has on you and on us.

I hope, someday, I will be able to show myself to you again naked, without worrying to be compared to all the pictures you have seen and that are in your head as well.

I hope that our sex life can become bright, carefree, cheerful and even naughty like it used to be.

I hope that we will be happy again.

I hope that I'll ever be able to trust you unconditionally again



Because I love you. Because you are the love of my life.

chpcbr

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2015, 02:31:49 PM »
Your letter is just amazing.

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2015, 04:01:15 PM »
Thanks chpcbr! I don't want to take all the credit, though... I stumbled across a letter from another woman on the internet and it seemed a good way to let him know how I felt. I was scared, because I didn't know how he would react and feel about it. After reading he started to cry his eyes out.
Then he gave me a big hug and told me, it was the most loving thing, that anyone had ever done for him. We are doing much better now.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 07:22:44 AM by hoopvol »

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2015, 09:55:49 AM »
small update: again a sign (two signs) things are changing:

a couple of days ago we were going through some old photo's. Holidays, birthdays, trips we made in the past, etc. you know what I mean. Afterwards he told me he felt very sad; he saw the photo's and realized how I must have felt during some of these holidays, for example. This was the first time he was capable of feeling empathy, the first time he tried to understand how I must have felt. To me that's a big change. He never thought about how I felt. An addiction (I think any addiction) makes you selfish. He told me, that he was selfish most of the time, always preoccupied. Now he doesn't even understand how he could be this way. That tells me, something is really changing in his brain. I'm very grateful he now has the courage to tell me about this. I know the feeling of shame and quilt sometimes get in the way. In the past he didn't talk about things, because he was afraid of the consequences, afraid of hurting me even more. Now he knows he doesn't have to be scared and that by not telling me, he is hurting himself.

bob

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2015, 05:32:00 PM »
Wow!

More power to you and the support you have shown your husband. My wife is also very supportive but hasn't taken an active role journaling on this site. She could, however written that very letter. Reading it again shows me how much she love me and supports me with this struggle.

Our relationship is much better but has more to offer. My thoughts are with the two of you and I hope he has success in breaking this addiction.

From your comments i understand that English isn't your first language but believe me when I say this is a positive comment...

You Go Girl!

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2015, 01:23:35 PM »
Hello Bob,

thanks for your kind words! It is a coincidence, that of all the rebooters, you wrote a reply in my journal:
the day before you wrote it, my husband told me about you. He read your journal an replies and your story is very similar to his. I  really appreciate it, that you read the posts on the partner-section of this forum as well.
And you are right: English is not my native language: we are Dutch. This makes it a bit harder to express ourselves and it takes a bit more time to get thoughts and feelings "on paper". And Google translate doesn't really help.  ;)
All the best to you and your wife as well!!!

« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 02:03:37 PM by hoopvol »

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2015, 05:29:04 PM »
Hi everyone
Just here to say, my husband is doing great. I'm really proud of him. He's reading and posting on this forum a lot. I can tell it's really helping him. This forum "feeds" our conversations and it makes it easier to talk about certain things. He appreciates the support and advice from other rebooters. Thank you, guys!
So glad we found this site!!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 05:34:02 PM by hoopvol »

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 03:10:04 AM »
hi everyone,

just a small update:
on sunday we had a gig with the band (he plays the bass guitar and I'm a singer). He played that day in another band as well (kind of a one-time project) and there was so much eye-contact the whole time he was on stage with that band. Later that day: little gestures, touches, looks, etc. I was so proud of him in so many ways. And there they were: the butterflies in my belly. Everything looks so much brighter, when they start to fly again. The flapping of their wings blows the darks cloud, that has been hanging over us for so long, away.
We're still work in progress, talk a lot and use this forum in many ways. But this feels really good!
There is hope.....
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 04:28:15 AM by hoopvol »

bob

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 07:44:09 AM »
hoopvol,

I am so glad for you. Isn't it amazing when those feelings surge again? More power to you and your man!

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 02:37:56 PM »
Thank you, Bob

I really hope the butterflies will start to flutter for you and your wife real soon!

Take care!

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2015, 04:02:37 AM »
woke up this morning feeling very, very sad. I had a really bad dream: I've always been afraid, he was chatting/sexting too, but he always denied. (I do believe him now, though). But in my dream I had to leave the house for a couple of days (don't remember why). When I returned home, I was replaced by this young girl, he had been chatting with. She even changed our home. Everything was painted in very bright colours and all our furniture was replaced. She'd taken over my entire life and I don't remember much more, but I felt so down, when I woke up. I think it's my brain paying tricks on me. It's like it wants to prepare me for the next disappointment. Things are going (too) great now, and maybe I'm just scared it can't go on like this. I told him about my dream, almost immediately after waking up. I did't want him to think, there was something wrong. He told me, he get's afraid too. These last few weeks have been a real turning-point for us.
We were fighting this addiction for already 1,5 years, before we found this site. We went trough a series of therapy-sessions two times and we're trying to get through this by ourselves.
About two weeks ago, we found this site and decided to join RN. Best decision ever! I've changed a lot during these two weeks. Just being able to share your experiences and knowing you're not alone is a life changer. I realize now that I'm one of the "lucky" ones, because my husband:
-knows he has problem
-want's to work on it
-has shared everything with me, so we can talk about it
We had our vacation these last 3 weeks and on monday we have to start work again. It was the best vacation ever. We didn't go to France, didn't go to the beach, but we were healing and finding each other again. Of course we will continue coming to this forum, but for now...
I just want to say: thank you all for being here!!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 04:05:18 AM by hoopvol »

Steam rolled

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2015, 11:36:55 AM »
Thanks for sharing I have been following your thread as i feel like im looking in a mirror when reading it.
Its something you just want to go away forever but cant find the way.
Haven't given up yet, though there are moments.
The dreams i have some nights are almost the same, weird!
I just wish the thoughts would go away while trying to make love, I have developed a woman's form of ED/ orgasm dysfunction :(  due to excessive thoughts.
But we Stay strong for love!

Again thanks for sharing and letting me & others know we are not alone and i guess the feelings i get that im going insane is just part of the trauma of being hurt
By the one person you trusted unconditionally.

Stay strong!
Thanks thanks
LOVE IS NOT LONELY!!!

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2015, 03:14:57 PM »
Hello Steam Rolled,

thank you for your kind words. I've been following your journal and posts as well. The (our) stories are very similar, indeed. Sometimes I get so frustrated by the thought of so many relationships, that struggle with this. But all in secrecy, often the partner doesn't know and feels very lonely, because she thinks something's wrong with her. We've all been there.
As I said: I'm one of the "lucky" ones. I don't often have dreams like this, but sometimes your brain tries to warn you not to get carried away, I guess. I hope, you'll be able to get rid of the excessive thinking real soon. You already know you weren't the reason he watched P, now you have to feel it. Your brain isn't always able to guide your heart. I know....
Thank you for being here as well... wish you all the strength you need and keep us posted...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 03:23:57 PM by hoopvol »

Steam rolled

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2015, 02:41:33 PM »
Thank you for your response.
It means a lot.

one day its 5 steps forward
the next day its 4 steps back
But as long as i stay 1 step ahead just hope one day ill be whole again!

Thanks Be strong.

P.S A lot of girls with teen boys i know are having the same problems with this and isolation and disrespecting young girls  due to PMO, its sad and angers me.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 02:44:47 PM by Steam rolled »
LOVE IS NOT LONELY!!!

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2015, 04:03:23 AM »
Hi everyone,

again, just a little update. We are doing great!! Started working last week after our summer-break. I was a bit worried, the time off work was part of the reason, we were more relaxed and talking more. Not so, we still talk. My husband is not posting that much anymore, because he's very busy and he doesn't want to be thinking about his rebooting all the time. I can totally understand! He living in the present and not looking back too much. He will continue to be a active member, just not on a daily basis.
We've been communicating with some other members on a more personal level (through personal messages), and that was very helpful for us too. It gives you a chance to really connect to people.
Again one of the benefits of this community.
Have to say it again: thank you all for being here!!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 04:42:05 PM by hoopvol »

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2015, 10:19:45 AM »
Finally...... we talked to our two sons about the dangers of porn! It was not as awkward as we feared. We kept it light and informative. We just explained to them, that p is a kind of a new drug. We told them, we just wanted them to know and be educated about this subject, the same as they know all about the dangers of drugs and too much alcohol.
We watched the 3 videos from YBOP called "Things you didn't know about porn" together with them and talked about them afterwards. It was all new to them, so we are very glad we did this. We asked them, if there was any information at school, or if they ever heard someone talk about it: nothing. Here in the Netherlands we have school-doctors, who follow the children's physical and emotional development. They talk to them about alcohol, drugs, smoking, junkfood, etc, but nothing about P. On the other hand; I believe it's the parent's job in the first place, but there are a lot of parents out there, who have no idea!
Tomorrow I'll talk to our daughter. She was't home last night. But she has to know as well.
the link to the videos:
http://yourbrainonporn.com/things-you-didnt-know-about-porn
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 10:21:19 AM by hoopvol »

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2015, 02:38:11 PM »
Hi everyone,

My husband has some flashbacks every now and then... P-scenes just pop up in his head. It freaks him out!! He gets really upset, scared, insecure and frustrated. He doesn't want these images in his head anymore. I've always been aware of the fact, that the brain is kind of a big hard-disk and, in the case of our spouses, has a lot of storage-space wasted on P. No wonder, that sometimes these scenes pop up. I try to explain this to him and tell him not to get too upset about them. The only thing that matters, is how he deals with them...... He doesn't use the images to start fantasizing, neither do they make him relapse. He just wants all of this to belong to our past and not the present (or the future). He told me the flashbacks are getting less frequent. I hope, they will stay away entirely soon.
Don't get me wrong, don't think I don't care about the flashbacks: I hate to think about all the "data" he still has access to, but I don't believe it will make him relapse; not anymore. I have to believe the flashbacks will stop occurring eventually, that the images will fade...... as long as he stays away from "new supplies".
He began reading and posting here on RN again; this helps him to see things in perspective.
So again: glad we found you guys....

 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 03:30:01 PM by hoopvol »

bob

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2015, 03:28:23 PM »
I to have those thoughts and "visions." However, we are powerless to erase those thoughts from our mind. What we need to do is what we might do with a child or a pet; redirect them away from the "hot stove." To spend too much time talking about the stove is to build its allure. The more you hear about it the more you want to examine it, sense it, touch it. And it

It is SO HARD but we need to redirect ourselves into something or somewhere else. Lets not give it the power of acknowledgement.

I hope Hope is able to forgive himself and move on. It is what I want for everyone here.

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2015, 10:06:44 AM »
Hi Bob,

Thank you for your reply! Always nice to hear from you!

We hardly ever talk about the flashbacks. Only when he tells me about them. It feels a bit weird, that I'm the one that has to tell him, that it's okay and normal. That they are part of the whole process and that they will fade over time.
Every time they surprise him, he gets upset, but he calms down as soon as we talk about it. He still hesitates to tell me sometimes, because of the shame, I guess.
He has moved on and is still on the right track.....

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2015, 10:00:07 AM »
just wanted to share this one with you all. Hard to believe, that women who ask for help get "advice" like this!!
It makes me so sad and angry.
http://posarc.com/blog-roll/item/a-wife-sounds-off-about-bad-advice
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 11:23:03 AM by hoopvol »

irish08

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2015, 12:03:01 PM »
Hi Bill,

Glad you found your way to this forum. Your journal is already inspiring!!
I'm sure you will find a lot of support here and sharing your story will support others, too.
Keep strong and keep posting....

Hi hoopvol, thanks for the warm introduction on my journal.

I have read your story thus far and I think what you and your husband are doing is amazing. Far beyond what many couples are capable of doing.

One thing that really stood out to me so far is that you spoke with your kids about this in a constructive way and it's awesome that you received good feedback from them. They are lucky to have you as parents.

Keep moving forward and good luck to both of you.

Pr3c1se

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2015, 05:19:21 PM »
Letter to my husband:


I love you. You are the love of my life.

You are a companion and a wonderful father.

I love your warmth, your kindness, your helpfulness ...

But ....

Sometimes I want to run away screaming. Sometimes I do not want a relationship with any man, never again. I want to feel confident, to feel safe, dignified and beautiful. Once,  you made me feel that way.

Before I discovered your porn.

Before I realized what grip it has on you.

I've tried. I tried to accept it. I tried to ignore it. I tried to watch it with you. I hated it, but I loved you.

I tried to believe you when you say that I am the one that you want. I miss you, weep for you, as you look at a whole range of images of women with which I could never compete.

I tried to convince myself that it is nothing. I tried not to feel bad when I realize that you'd rather have sex with the fantasy in your head, then with the woman in your bed. I tried not to feel rejected.

I tried to convince myself that I was imagining things., that I overreacted. Attempting to believe, when you tried to convince me that there was nothing to worry about. It is a pity that I know your dear face too well.

I tried to feel sexy. Tried not to feel so awkward and uncomfortable. Tried not to think that my body is not good enough.

I tried to shrug my shoulders if you were interested in another woman, and gave her the attention I craved. Tried to believe that you really did not want anything with that person, but your actions showed otherwise.

But ...

I have also tried other things.

I tried to punish you. I tried by fight or silence.

I tried to look at you with disgust. I tried to hate you.


I've always tried to catch you. I went trough your phone, computer, and even checked our bedroom. Like a detective in in our own home.


I tried to talk to you, cried and shouted.

I tried to keep quiet.

I tried to think about a life without you.

I tried to imagine how the children would react if we were no longer together.

I'm so tired of trying.

I wish that you could really realize what porn is doing to us.

I wish you could understand that I often already know the answer when I ask your a question.

I wish that you could not lie so easily.

I wish we could just make the pain go away.

I sometimes wish I could go back in time and not fall in love with you, that we never started our life together.

But I can’t  disappoint you.

I can not leave you and I can not hurt you.

I sometimes feel so helpless and scared, weak and worthless, ugly, embarrassed, old, used, tired, sad and alone.

I love you; I want to be able to trust you.

I hope it all works out.

I hope that you can wrestle yourself free from the grip that porn has on you and on us.

I hope, someday, I will be able to show myself to you again naked, without worrying to be compared to all the pictures you have seen and that are in your head as well.

I hope that our sex life can become bright, carefree, cheerful and even naughty like it used to be.

I hope that we will be happy again.

I hope that I'll ever be able to trust you unconditionally again



Because I love you. Because you are the love of my life.

I think if my wife gave me this letter I would cry like a little baby and never watch porn again for the rest of my life.  You're an amazing woman.  Keep up the fight.  This addiction is powerful inside our male minds.  Many of us had no idea what we got ourselves into.  :(  Don't give up!

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2015, 12:06:36 PM »
@ bill:

"They are lucky to have you as parents.": Thank you. That means a lot!! I don't know, if our kids will always agree with you on this one, though ::)

@ Pr3s1ce:

I won't give up. We've come a long way already and still going. And yes: he cried like a baby! And it helped him see, what it has done to us. I hadn't read it myself for some time; reading it again made me cry as well. This time not because I was sad, but because i realized, I'm not the same woman who wrote that letter anymore. Still recovering, but as I said: we've come a long way!

Thank you, guys!

hoopvol

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Re: there is hope
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2015, 01:20:52 PM »
Hi every one,

again a little update:
we went through a little rough patch this last week. I started to notice some familiar changes in his behaviour and it scared the hell out of me! He was pre-occupied, lost interest in me, we all  know the signs. At a certain point, I was convinced he was back at it one way or another. I didn't talk to him about it, because I was afraid I misunderstood. If there was nothing wrong and I started to question him, I thought I would hurt him. He would probably think, I'll never trust him again.
But while I was on this forum and read my own posts, I knew I had to practice what I preach: be honest about my feelings as well.
So I asked him, if there was something wrong and if he needed to tell me something. He fell silent and that told me my feeling was right. It took him some  time to confess that he was having flash-backs again. I've been aware of the possibility of flash-backs, because he has a lot of P stored on his own hard drive (his brain). We talked about this before, about how they scare and confuse him. I've always told him, that they will become less, when he ignores them. But 1,5 weeks ago, he gave in once and used the flash-backs and his own "stash" to MO. Technically maybe no PMO, but dangerously close. It made him feel awful and he felt very guilty. That was what I noticed... the same shame and quilt again. It was hard for me to stay calm and not put on my very comfy "angry-coat", that is so familiar and easy. We talked about it and again we game to this conclusion: the fact that he didn't tell me about it, is harder on me than the MO-ing on itself. The fact, that he kept it to himself, while he saw me struggling with my emotions. We were both feeling miserable: he felt so ashamed an guilty and I was convinced he had relapsed. After talking about it, we both felt so much better!
We also talked more about all the P, that's still in his brain... there is no filter anyone could install to keep him safe from that. There is only one filter, that can help him in this case: his willpower. In fact that should be the only filter he needs.
We're doing fine again, just a minor setback: 100 steps forward, one step back.
He learned an important lesson (again), though: being honest prevents minor things from escalating into something much worse.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 03:06:19 PM by hoopvol »