Author Topic: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality  (Read 14414 times)

HumbleRich

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A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« on: February 27, 2015, 04:35:14 AM »
It is quite late, so if any of this is unclear, that is why.  I hope this reads well.

Someone on another support board, an SO of a porn addict, used the term pornosexuality to describe what she saw as the abduction of our sexuality by porn, the objectification that replaces our natural sexuality.  A hyper-sexuality, if you will.  What appears to be our natural sexuality (in my case hetero-sexuality) develops into something different altogether.  It is subtle.  We don't notice it at first.  We don't see it because it isn't a change in our sexual orientation, per say, as much as a change in how we experience sexuality.  In some cases it does get close to the line.  I have experienced HOCD myself.  At times I have wondered if I am bi-sexual.  Only after rationally looking at myself and thinking through it all did I reinforce my confidence in my hetero-sexuality.  One of the big "AHa moments" was the acknowledgement that I hyper-sexualize everything, especially my attraction to women. 

I can identify two major moments that led me to the realization that my natural hetero-sexuality had turned into porno-sexuality.  The first was an observation of how my girlfriend (now, my fiancee) behaved.

About two months into dating, she and I snuck into the women's bathroom in her dorm to shower together.  She and I had already had sex, but this was our first time bathing together.  I recall a lot of awkwardness on my part.  I stood there with her, naked, the water flowing over us.  I wasn't entirely sure what I was supposed to do.  She smiled at me.  It was an innocent smile.  Unsure of what to do, I made an excuse to leave after having washed myself, to her disappointment.

It was after I had left that it hit me.  During the ten minutes that she and I were in the shower she hadn't once, even for the slightest moment, looked down.  Not once.  I puzzled over this for the rest of the day.  She and I have bathed together a few times since, and never did she look at my manhood. 

I noticed that sex was similar.  It wasn't the same.  She did look at my arousal, but her glances were fleeting, unlike my attention, which was focused on her breasts, and never strayed.  When she looked at my erections, it was completely different.  It was with short, second long glances, which then went back up to my eyes.  She never stared, she never objectified.  As much as she loved my body (and still does), it was my personhood, my spirit that she was sleeping with.  It was me she was having the experience with.

I remember that there was a period, while she and I were dating, where, taking her lack of attention to my manhood as an insult (warning sign, anyone), that I insisted she tell me how my penis looked in my jeans and trousers.  I asked her to check me out (the way I checked women out in porn).  I asked her to tell me, in detail, what she saw.  It actually turned me on to have her ogling me.  She enjoyed it, at first.  It felt kinky to have permission to check out her boyfriend so candidly.  She soon grew tired of it, though.  It simply felt wrong.  She loved me and she was attracted to my body. 

But she didn't like objectifying me.  And that is the key.

Two more moments really drove the porno-sexuality sickness home.

2.  One night, right before sex, I actually asked her to change her outfit to show more cleavage.  This is really important!  For me, cleavage is one of my porn fetishes.  I suppose it is natural for a man to be attracted to his girlfriend's breasts, but objectifying her to the point where he asks her to change.  That is a big warning sign.

3.  The complete opposite.  My girlfriend and I were at a hotel, I was laying in bed, she was wearing a bath robe that was open.  She smiled at me, flirting, expecting me to make a move, but I just lied there and stared. 

What is my point?  Porn hijacks our sexuality and takes control.  Suddenly, we objectify our partners without even realizing that that is what we are doing.  We objectify ourselves, and we lose our engagement with our partner.  I had the green light to go, but I just lay there like an idiot.

Gentlemen, this bad habit is a plague and it ravages our sexualities, turning them into something bizarre and unnatural.

I have identified a few major symptoms, or results of this in myself.

1.  My partner becomes a bunch of body parts as soon as her clothes are off, or sometimes even when they are on.

This is just not normal, fellas!  Why did I just stare at my girlfriend when her robe was open?  This is something very poignant.  Somewhat ironically, she was inviting me to gaze upon her body, but not to stare, to gaze.  To notice, to observe.  Not to objectify, to glance at.

Our partners want us to look at their bodies.  They really do.  There is nothing wrong with liking our partner's breasts and finding them attractive.  Our partner likes our penis, after all.  But there is a big difference between enjoying and appreciating our partner's body and objectifying it. 

When I asked my fiancee, much later, why she never looked down while we bathed, her answer was plain and simple.  She never saw or thought of me that way.  What way, I wondered to myself, but didn't ask out loud.  I figured it out myself, though, after a bit of thought.

She had the mature ability to appreciate and be attracted to my body, including my penis, without objectifying it and me.  She didn't have to stare at my manhood, the way I stared at her breasts.  She never had an urge to ogle my body.  Her attraction to me was much deeper, much stronger and more sophisticated. 

The way she expressed her sexuality towards me was very different from the way I expressed mine towards her.  In fact, it wasn't so much expressing it with her, as much as at her, or on her.

And this is what pornosexuality is.  It is the focus on using the woman to satisfy our own sexual appetite.  She isn't a person, in this perspective, but an object.  Just as the images on our screen are objects.

2.  I'm not sure whether this is a separate part or if it is simply a result of the above, but porno-sexuality lacks the engagement of natural, mature sex. 

It has been a hard pill to swallow, but I have come to realize that I never learned how to engage a woman sexually.  I am only now, at 28, starting to explore sex from my fiancee's point of view. 

This is something that porn addiction simply obliterates.  Actually, as addicts, engagement was simply something we never had to learn.  I don't know about the rest of you, but my addiction to porn began long before I started having sex.  Therefore my experience with sex was a result of my experience with porn.  It was one and the same.

When using porn I was the only person that mattered, and so when I had sex I acted and behaved the same way.

But when we have sex there is another person.

A woman needs to be engaged sexually.  I prefer engagement to the popular term seduced, because the latter implies passivity on the part of the woman.  This implied passivity, this objectification is exactly what we have to leave behind as we overcome our addictions and attempt to build a new, healthier lifestyle.

A woman needs to be engaged as a human being.  This means engaging her in general, by being romantic and funny and stimulating.  It also means engaging her sexually.  It is important to know how to turn her on and get her in the mood.

Alas, the only way to engage a woman sexually is to treat her like a whole, complete human being.  You can't engage a bunch of body parts.  You can't engage someone you objectify. 

You have to make the decision to see the person.  You have to decide not to look down. 

That is what is required.  We have to take back our sexuality.  That is what it means to overcome our addiction.  To take back our lives and focusing on our partners.  That is what it is all about.


ben_nofap_uk

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2015, 06:22:40 AM »
Very interesting  :) Especially as a married man I can totally relate to the whole objectifying her body whilst she only takes short glances at yours. My wife too has a great cleavage and like you it is a massive turn on for me. She usually dresses quite conservatively as she is now in her mid-40's so believes she is too old for showing off her cleavage, but I love it, especially when we're alone. I'm guessing it's the way women are "programmed" they're more turned on but what they hear, smell or feel rather than what they see.


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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2015, 06:47:59 AM »
Very interesting read, this really strikes a chord with me and really gives me a buzz reading this and reinforces the need and the will power to reboot.

Thank u

Maxime

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2015, 07:06:39 AM »
 Very interesting read, although while I'm probably addicted (for now...), I've been with my girlfriend way before, and cannot relate to that part:
Quote
Actually, as addicts, engagement was simply something we never had to learn
I think there's also a big part that varies from person to person.
But as someone who feels like it is important to try and reflect on my thoughts, actions and such, I can only applaud your introspection. Again, very interesting!

jkkk

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2015, 09:28:58 AM »
HumbleRich,

This is a very insightful post and thanks for sharing it with us!

Very good diagnosis on the addict's perspective, great comparison to healthy views.

One of the biggest challenges that I know I face is rewiring. Learning, from scratch, how to have a healthy sexuality. I was addicted years before having a gf, before having sex. I personally know that my sexuality is totally warped and all that you describe is absolutely my case.

Include heavy objectification of my wife. She is the love of my life. And yet I have a magnificent problem with objectification. On my part this issue is painful and wrenching for me, because my objectification turns also on negative points that is - in my objectifying addicted consciousness - particularly my wife's breast size.

It amazes how after so much reboot and effort this still is a problem for me. This shows just how humble I need to be towards my addiction. At a certain point in acting out I visited a lot of sites about breast augmentation, explaining to myself that this perfectly legit and normal. It is not. I wonder when will these thoughts go away. I really wish they would. They are a byproduct of my addiction and one of the few symptoms that I still feel and that really bothers me.

Yet I will not give up. I will fight this sh** to the end or I should rather say that I will LET myself be healed by abstaining from what I cannot control and doing the best in where I have control.

Thanks for sharing, once again. This was very spot on for me. If I could return you any favor, let me know.

Vincent

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2015, 09:43:36 AM »
very very accurate and helpful. Those insights I had as well, but you put them into the right words. Many thanks for that. It simply is true. We completely ignored our sexuality, the intrinsic one, and let it be driven by extrinsic sexual input from porn. So, when like 10 years ago I said that watching porn is to live out one's sexuality, the actual opposite was and is the case. Because then we experience somebody else's sexuality.

Thanks again

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lte

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2015, 11:03:08 AM »
Great insights.

HumbleRich,

This is a very insightful post and thanks for sharing it with us!

Very good diagnosis on the addict's perspective, great comparison to healthy views.

One of the biggest challenges that I know I face is rewiring. Learning, from scratch, how to have a healthy sexuality. I was addicted years before having a gf, before having sex. I personally know that my sexuality is totally warped and all that you describe is absolutely my case.

Include heavy objectification of my wife. She is the love of my life. And yet I have a magnificent problem with objectification. On my part this issue is painful and wrenching for me, because my objectification turns also on negative points that is - in my objectifying addicted consciousness - particularly my wife's breast size.

It amazes how after so much reboot and effort this still is a problem for me. This shows just how humble I need to be towards my addiction. At a certain point in acting out I visited a lot of sites about breast augmentation, explaining to myself that this perfectly legit and normal. It is not. I wonder when will these thoughts go away. I really wish they would. They are a byproduct of my addiction and one of the few symptoms that I still feel and that really bothers me.

Yet I will not give up. I will fight this sh** to the end or I should rather say that I will LET myself be healed by abstaining from what I cannot control and doing the best in where I have control.

Thanks for sharing, once again. This was very spot on for me. If I could return you any favor, let me know.
The progress continues over time. I'm closing in on 800 days and I still am breaking new ground.


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Steam rolled

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2015, 11:23:00 AM »
Thanks for sharing.

Will definatly share with my husband.
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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2015, 03:54:48 PM »
HR  that is a very good take on things.  It explains why, as women, even though our man ages we are not bothered so much by the changes that aging brings about in terms of physical attractiveness.  We are engaged with the whole person.  So a little or more weight here or there is not of concern to us.  Graying hair or loss of hair not a big deal.  For me, I love the sound of my husband's voice always have always will.  Just hearing him talk.  And that may explain why we are so blindsided by the whole porn thing.

JKKK what was it that you loved about your wife initially?  If porn was there before her, then your preference was there.  What does she or did she have that overcame that preference? 

Women want to be more than a sum total of our body parts.  My husband used to talk about the way I looked at 18 when he first saw me.  I wanted him to say when he sees me now I am amazing.  That is important to us.  To be attractive throughout our life span especially to our husbands.

For my husband and I, we had to reach back and talk about why we got married, what attracted us to one another, why and how did we enjoy being with each other.  We had to look at ourselves and find all those things again and bring them to the here and now.  An update to our computer system of love.


lte

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 03:59:41 PM »
HR  that is a very good take on things.  It explains why, as women, even though our man ages we are not bothered so much by the changes that aging brings about in terms of physical attractiveness.  We are engaged with the whole person.  So a little or more weight here or there is not of concern to us.  Graying hair or loss of hair not a big deal.  For me, I love the sound of my husband's voice always have always will.  Just hearing him talk.  And that may explain why we are so blindsided by the whole porn thing.

JKKK what was it that you loved about your wife initially?  If porn was there before her, then your preference was there.  What does she or did she have that overcame that preference? 

Women want to be more than a sum total of our body parts.  My husband used to talk about the way I looked at 18 when he first saw me.  I wanted him to say when he sees me now I am amazing.  That is important to us.  To be attractive throughout our life span especially to our husbands.

For my husband and I, we had to reach back and talk about why we got married, what attracted us to one another, why and how did we enjoy being with each other.  We had to look at ourselves and find all those things again and bring them to the here and now.  An update to our computer system of love.
Our modern pop culture seems to work against the direction of goodness regarding all of this. If you take cues from the world of entertainment you would think that the physical is all that matters. People have forgotten what a gift it is to have others in our lives. Everyone that is part of my close circle is precious, but a mate is even more precious.


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lte

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2015, 05:55:52 PM »
I may have locked this topic inadvertently. It's easy enough to do, just a single click that must've happened accidentally. In any event, I unlocked it and I apologize. It seems like a great topic and I'm not trying to inhibit it in any way.


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jkkk

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2015, 07:14:40 PM »
The progress continues over time. I'm closing in on 800 days and I still am breaking new ground.

This is my hope, this is what I cling on to when I have doubts :)

JKKK what was it that you loved about your wife initially?  If porn was there before her, then your preference was there.  What does she or did she have that overcame that preference? 

This is a very good question. It came to my mind recently.

The answer is: everything. She is an amazing person with a fantastic, strong character, a great companion, loving and caring.

I really feel ashamed at times when I admit to this objectification issue that I mentioned above. But I immediately tell myself I have nothing to be ashamed for here. This is what the addiction does to people, this is what it did to me. It warped my brain, it affected my thinking. This just a reminder to me that this not a cold to be shaken off in a week. I'm no bystander in that situation. I do a lot, but I also want to be patient, keep through the good things, stay away from acting out and triggers as much as possible and keep rewiring to her. And I see my way of thinking already changing, my wife and I we have so much a better connection now than just a year ago that it gives me hope in tackling other issues too. From the reading of other guy's here I see that is the road to success. So I just stay on it, I have hope.

Once I get there I want to say on it and constantly be en route to a healthy life. My experience from the past is that there is no end to reboot and recovery (I thought there is and I failed miserably). It's like the AA guys who keep on reporting for meetings after 20 years sober. Quite a lifetime program, so I prefer to concentrate on right here, right now :)

lte

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2015, 07:24:06 PM »
The progress continues over time. I'm closing in on 800 days and I still am breaking new ground.

This is my hope, this is what I cling on to when I have doubts :)

Early on in the game I realized that once the addiction was broken it would become easier overall. That isn't to suggest that I don't have the occasional rough moment, but they are much less common now than they used to be and I have built up a fund of experience in dealing with them. You will continue to see more benefits as time goes on. There's no end in sight; it just keeps getting better.


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challenged

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2015, 08:01:10 PM »
I think this can sometimes be a complicated topic -- what exactly it means to "objectify" -- and that to some extent it is a topic as to which some of the nuances are not easily articulated to everyone's satisfaction.  It is probably one that could easily lead to misunderstandings.  Anyway, I have no doubt that porn can cause people to objectify others (both men and women).  This is no doubt a harmful consequence of porn, and to a large extent, many users have to "unlearn" the tendency to objectify members of the opposite sex (or the same sex).

But at the same time, it is natural for a man to appreciate and enjoy his wife's body and vice-versa.  The simple fact of enjoying your spouse's body, and desiring to look at it is not "objectifying" the person.  Read the Song of Solomon.  Do the man and woman "objectify" each other in the Song of Solomon?  I think not. Enjoying your spouse's body and desiring to look at it and admire it is a basic aspect of human sexuality that God gave us.

Thus, it seems to me that it is possible for a man to enjoy his wife's body and to wish to look at it and enjoy the view, without objectifying his wife.  And vice-versa.  So I don't agree that it is necessary to have only a fleeting glance of your spouse's body, and then you need to "look up."  My wife enjoys it when I gaze at and admire her body and I feel the same way when she does it to me.  We have been married 35+ years, and with all of what we have experienced together and how we relate to one another, there ain't no "objectifying" going on, folks.  But I certainly agree that if all you care about is the "body parts" and that is all the person means to you, or is primarily what they mean to you, then you have a problem that needs attention.  And, again, this is certainly one of the potential harms created by consumption of pornography.

So I certainly agree that we need to see other people as human beings and not just as a collection of body parts to satisfy us, and we need to overcome whatever porn has taught us in this regard, but it is possible to see and value your spouse as a whole person --- but still enjoy looking at them (and looking at them naked).

Anyway, I'm just throwing these thoughts out there, not as a rebuttal or disagreement with anything anybody has said thus far, but just as some thoughts to consider on this complicated topic.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 08:47:45 PM by challenged »

Greg1994

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2015, 08:36:25 PM »
Great post. I know exactly what your talking about. Porn truly does warp your sexuality. I have a question about your HOCD. I too suffer from it but I've noticed a definite decrease in HOCD thoughts since starting my reboot. I'm about 25 days in and I've experienced other benefits as well. I was wondering if you still have HOCD thoughts at all? Or if you don't, when did they start going away? I'd appreciate your response and intake. Best of luck to you

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2015, 11:13:13 PM »
Jkkk, I did not mean to make you feel ashamed.  I just meant that she attracted you just as she was and still is.  That says a lot.  That is what my husband and I did.  We had to go through and we actually listed the things that attracted us to one another.  And we got back to that attraction.   I am sorry if you thought I meant the comment in a bad way.

R

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2015, 03:40:30 AM »
Wow...this is a really fascinating and interesting topic and viewpoint. It makes so much sense.   As I read, I started thinking of how, when my Wife and I started dating 20 years ago, she was not my "type" at all.  As we dated, I found out that she was a virgin and I respected her for that to the point that I stopped all MO and had no porn during that time.  When I talk about her not being my type, I'm speaking of the physical.  I am a pretty tall guy and always went for tall blondes.  My wife is the antithesis of a tall blond but it was her genuine friendship and whole person that I fell in love with, not a body type.  As I fell down the porn rabbit hole of high speed internet, EVERYTHING became about objectifying women in general and her due to being closest and most available.  What an amazing insult I did to her and didn't even realize it when I was doing it.
I'm ranting right now because I'm still up at 2:30 in the morning.  Probably better to sign off for now and check back in tomorrow.
R

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2015, 05:18:08 AM »
Jkkk, I did not mean to make you feel ashamed.  I just meant that she attracted you just as she was and still is.  That says a lot.  That is what my husband and I did.  We had to go through and we actually listed the things that attracted us to one another.  And we got back to that attraction.   I am sorry if you thought I meant the comment in a bad way.

Gracie, you didn't. Your comment, or rather question, just naturally goes to the root of the problem that concerns objectification and it does so rightly.

But at the same time, it is natural for a man to appreciate and enjoy his wife's body and vice-versa.  The simple fact of enjoying your spouse's body, and desiring to look at it is not "objectifying" the person.  Read the Song of Solomon.  Do the man and woman "objectify" each other in the Song of Solomon?  I think not. Enjoying your spouse's body and desiring to look at it and admire it is a basic aspect of human sexuality that God gave us.

But we are discussing a wholly different issue here.

What you write is about is the best, most wonderful attraction that there is between a woman and a man. This attraction is not disconnected from being a woman or a man, and the beauty in each sexes. This the point that all struggling with the addiction-induced mindset, which HumbleRich so accurately described, want to reach. If you are there already, or you never left this consciousness, good for you.

Do not take offence but I dare to say that this issue is more commonplace with the youngest guys here and it may, for some of guys here (and I'm very happy for all of you). The only sexual outlet I had between 10 y.o. and 22 y.o. was porn, and I know there a hundreds of guys like me around here. Again, my point is not to say we are "suffering more" but our road to recovery is way longer, as it has already been underlined by Gary Wilson and Gabe in many of their videos.

For now many of us what you describe between your wife and you is something really far away at the moment. I envy you, but I also hope, and I want, to get there one day :)

challenged

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2015, 01:29:24 PM »
But at the same time, it is natural for a man to appreciate and enjoy his wife's body and vice-versa.  The simple fact of enjoying your spouse's body, and desiring to look at it is not "objectifying" the person.  Read the Song of Solomon.  Do the man and woman "objectify" each other in the Song of Solomon?  I think not. Enjoying your spouse's body and desiring to look at it and admire it is a basic aspect of human sexuality that God gave us.

But we are discussing a wholly different issue here.

What you write is about is the best, most wonderful attraction that there is between a woman and a man. This attraction is not disconnected from being a woman or a man, and the beauty in each sexes. This the point that all struggling with the addiction-induced mindset, which HumbleRich so accurately described, want to reach. If you are there already, or you never left this consciousness, good for you.

I'm not sure it is a wholly different issue, but as I said above, this is probably one of the instances where the "nuances" are not articulated to everyone's satisfaction.  A couple of thoughts to try to clarify:

First, when you say "if you are already there," I am a human being, and a man, I think it is natural for all of us men to struggle from time to time with the "objectification" issue.  It is natural for human beings (men and women) to struggle with lust.  I am by no means perfect, or immune to these struggles.  Therefore, I fully understand the struggles that people face in this area, and the tendency of all us to sometimes objectify women (or men) in the sexual context, or other human beings in other contexts.  And I understand how porn can increase the tendency to lust and "objectify."

That being said, I am just suggesting that we need to be careful not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater," so to speak -- even when we have struggled, or are struggling, with porn.  Sometimes I read comments that suggest that desiring to look at your wife's body, or asking her to wear something (e.g., lingerie or whatever), is "objectifying" her, and/or is necessarily a consequence of porn use.   I think that such things possibly could be evidence of, or associated with, a man objectifying his wife (or a wife objectifying her husband in the opposite case).  But they are also a part of normal, healthy human sexuality.

So I just suggesting that we be careful to identify the precise issue, in terms of how we tend to objectify a person.  It seems to me that the problem is when we fail to see our spouse as a whole person, or we disregard their personality or dignity in favor of what they can offer us sexually.  I don't think the problem is defined merely by the fact that we enjoy looking at his or her body, or that we like it when they wear something sexy for us.

That's all I was really saying.  :) 

(And, BTW, I agree that the problem if "objectification" is likely to be exacerbated in younger guys whose sexual experience has been dominated by internet porn).
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 02:14:12 PM by challenged »

HumbleRich

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2015, 11:46:31 PM »
I have seen all of the responses and appreciate the discussion that has arisen.  I will respond after a few days of No PMO. 

Rich

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2015, 06:12:23 AM »
This is a fascinating topic...  i really appreciate the porno-sexuality thing.

Just to add a spanner into the works regarding the objectification theory....  you should never be ashamed by the fact your eyes are drawn to a womans ass or boobs, it IS in our dna as men... Men were attracted to womens bodies long before porn came along... in fact prior to internet porn, from cave drawings to softcore porn mags, the reason porn exists is because of the attraction to womens bodies...

i would argue it has only become objectification with the introduction of the internet....  its a question of respect perhaps, rather than objectification.

my point is that it is worth remembering that there is no shame in being a attracted to womens bodies, you can make your own line in the sand regarding objectification. but objectification has been a thing way before pornography.... 

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2015, 07:38:30 AM »
Eyes drawn is one thing.  Ogling is another.  Making sexual comments out loud is another.  The last two are objectification.  And they existed long before the internet.  Attraction and objectification is not the same thing.  The look in my husband's eyes with attraction is totally unlike the look with ogling.  His actions are different.  And that leads to pornosexuality.  Just an SO observation.

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2015, 10:14:36 AM »
Objectification in general is more the fact of making an icon out of  a specific constellation of figure. An object per se is something one wants to possess or own. If a person is objectified, he or she is reduced to that specific part of interest. In case of the woman, primary and secondary sexual genitalia. Of course breasts and the thing they basically represent, the butt, are to attract a man's attention, as are the man's broad shoulders, muscles and build. BUT they are signs to attract attention to the whole person. What the term "Pornosexuality" is coining, is this reduction. And we find that reduction in our definitions of gender and sex. A man is a man, because he has a dick....and so on. This already is a reduction.

However, a man also cannot be identified as man, if the central aspects that society understands as "man-parts" are missing. And this is also valid for women.
The problem's core of the definition is that, over time,  the man-parts and woman-parts might have become the icons of the person. A simple reduction. And this the "object" woman is her breasts and other sexual parts, as a sexual object. This process might have been augmented by the internet, yes. On the other hand, this reduction is a very natural learning process and might therefore be very old: boobs = woman = sex.
By seeing a woman or man as what they are, people of different sex, natural attraction to certain cues is normal.

What is not normal is to leave out the subsequent process of bonding. If Pornosexuality is the term to use, I would say that it reduces the relationship to sex and to the reception of pleasure. The form of these is then forged by porn.

Thus, we learn from porn how to form a relationship and define a relationship over the act of sex.

We all have to admit, that we would have not regarded our present partners, if there would not have been also a form of physical attraction to traits or cues. But I think that is not the point here. What is important is, that pornosexuality might also change our way of defining what a good/bad relationship is. I already see it with myself. I have sex with my GF like 3 times a month. I say it is not enough. But why do I say so? because it is not normal? how many people have I asked about that? how many gave a true answer? I why don't I have the problem right now, as I am not MOing for over a month now with occasional sex? The fact that many of us out there think, sex is the MOST fundamental part of a relationship is the result of this.

But let's not forget, that this not only objectifies women. Men have this problem as well. What I do perceive to be a man and what probably many others do is no less than what we saw and still can see in those pictures, films and also in real life drama out there.....

With PMO out of question, here's my P & PM Spreadsheet

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2015, 12:58:11 AM »
I just used, so I'm not going to start spouting advice.

Obviously, this thread is devoted to objectification within a romantic relationship.  I am talking about when one partner (in this case me) objectifies the other (my fiancee).

So there are going to be some obvious differences between this discussion and that on the topic of objectification of women in general.  I think it is the same problem, with the same source, but it has to be dealt with differently.

Or, actually, you deal with it the same way, by humanizing the person you are objectifying, regardless.

As far as I am concerned, there is no reason at all to look at the breasts or butt of another woman when you are in a committed relationship.    This is a value I have yet to realize in my life, but the goal is to not look at other women in any way that would upset my fiancee.

I mentioned that the process of stopping objectification is the same, and I do believe that.  If you have a problem with objectifying a coworker, the process is pretty much the same as it is to stop objectifying your girlfriend, fiancee, or wife (I will use the term, partner from here on out).

How can that be?  Because the problem is the same in both cases.  Yes, it is natural to look at your partner's breasts and her private parts, just as Challenged and others have purported.

It is perfectly natural to check out your partner. 

Checking out your partner isn't the problem.  Looking at your partner sexually isn't the problem.  The problem arises when that is all you do, or when all you do is look at her body, and it replaces active love making.

When I say lovemaking, I don't just mean sex, I am referring to everything that precedes sex as well.  The engagement through kissing and touching, gazing into eachothers eyes, long drawn out foreplay.

Porn is the death of that. 

Challenged is right in his assertion that there is a line between appreciating your partner's body and objectifying it.  I, as a recovering addict, would recommend paying attention to how your non-addicted partner looks at you for a model of what is healthy and what isn't.

My fiancee may be too far on the other side, but she is closer to healthy than I am and that is what is important.

It really comes down to frequency and variety at the end of the day.

It is natural to want to look at your partner's breasts, and if your eyes are drawn there at some random moment, then occasionally it is fine.

But she would also like it if your eyes were gravitated towards her own just as frequently, as well as to her hair, her face, her nose, anything else other than what is sexual.

There will be moments when my fiancee tells me, "Rich, you are staring at me."  I respond that I am gazing at her lovingly, she catches me in the lie and shows me what a loving gaze looks like.

I do know the difference, but it is so easy to forget to look at your partner lovingly, especially when you have a porn addiction. 

My fiancee showed me what my objectifying stare looked like and it was truly frightening.  Dead eyes, no expression. 

Which, perhaps is the biggest, most significant characteristic of objectification.  There is no connection, there is no expression on your face.  The porn stare is truly frightening and disgusting.

If you find yourself looking at your partner's breasts, at least have some sort of expression of appreciation or even attraction on your face.  Anything but the blank stare.

There is an old saying that if you want to remember to do something every day, you have to do it every day.

Maybe the same thing is true of attraction.  Maybe, in order to be actively connected and attracted to your spouse, you have to show it on your face, in order for your brain to say, "hey, I really love this woman.....and she has a nice body."

We men are so literal all of the time.  When our partner yells at us for looking down her shirt, we think she is yelling at us for looking at her breasts.

No!  She is yelling at us for reducing her to her breasts.

There is a big difference.  She isn't mad at us for being attracted to her, she is mad at us for objectifying her.  It is our job to find that line.

The last thing I want to say really reiterates what I said before about controlling how you look.  It is even more important to control what you do.

I intentionally mentioned the moment where my fiancee opened her robe and I just stared, because it so clearly illustrates the passivity that results from porn use.

Instead of reacting to her obvious signals, I just stared at her.  Perhaps the most significant step we can take in reconnecting with our partner, aside from the obvious step of getting rid of porn and masturbation, is in not allowing ourselves to EVER be passive.

When we make love, we make love actively.  We engage our partner, we make love with her, not to her. 

Many say that sex facilitates the rebooting process, and I agree, but only if it is active sex. 

Now to practice what I preach.

Rich

« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 12:59:50 AM by HumbleRich »

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Re: A Brief Note on Pornosexuality
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2015, 03:27:12 AM »
First of all I'd like to thank HumbleRich for sharing his ideas and thoughts with us and for his willing to discuss them together :)

I am indeed inclined to agree that a thing like "pornosexuality" exists. I get what you mean and I could feel these changes in preferences myself - only after I quit they became really evident and I find myself confused about these desires today. Then again I like to be cautious whenever a change is "radical", because I know that people tend to swing into the other extreme...like gluttony turning into anorexia.

What makes the topic so difficult is the old problem of our missing control group. In a society things become normal and accepted, once something is done by the majority of people. You say that ogling at your gf's boobs is bad and consider it objectification. But how do we find out if that's true? Ask 1000 men on the street and I bet that most of them find that ok. Can't speak for the girls though. Our community here is a peer group of men willing to change drastically. No one here will say that objectification of women is a good thing, because that's as if we were all to stop smoking and still some of us said "oh well, I did quit but I still think cigarettes are really a great invention!". So in this case you raise that topic and people tend to agree with you, because it accords with the dogma of our recovery process. Forgive me for raising the "but", but...

My girlfriend and I have been a couple for 3.5 years now. She is a quiet girl and likes things safe and sound. No big risks, no hard parties...prefers the pretty life with our dog and a little romantic TV movie on the couch. I am very happy with that because she leaves me space for my free time and is always there when I need a safe haven at home - yes, I picked her for a reason. But it's not the only one. When we are getting it on, she turns into a different person. I have never met a woman who allows herself to enjoy sex as much as she does. She knows how to let go completely. Sometimes she needs romantic love sex and sometimes she likes it rough. And - now there's the point - she sometimes asks to be objectified. I find it hard to explain without triggering the users here, but she definitifely asks for it aloud, encouraging me to "just take whatever I want". If at all, it's me who slows that down and likes to look her in the eyes when she prefers face down into the pillow. I'm not saying this is the only way we make love...but it's a thing.

Claiming that women always and only want to be regarded as careful beings, full of love and sweet innocent desires, in my opinion is a generalization many women would totally disagree with. Some like it dirty, rough and direct. 80% of the time my gf likes being caressed and treated with upmost respect. 20% of the times she'd prefer me ogling at her boobs rather than having a slight glance. She takes it as a compliment ;)

Marriage counselors always advice that both partners shall not neglect sexual desires of their significant other. "Pretty and natural" is the basis for every relationship, but "sexy" is the frosting on the cake. Even when you are 50 years old, it's important to sometimes dress sexy for your partner. And in my opininion it's completely ok to ask your partner to do so. Of course it's not only what you say but how you say it. If my gf and I go out in a club I know for sure that I can ask her to wear a certain dress I like. She does the same thing to me by the way...she asks me to see a barber and spike my hair because she thinks that's sexy. And then she'd often touch my hair or my fresh shaved neck or squeeze my butt and I see the flames of arousal in her eyes. Does that mean she objectifies me?

I am sure many women are just like that. They want to be treated with respect. They want to be sure that men are in love with THEM and not with their body. But once a couple works together that well and trusts one another, the mentioned "symptoms of pornosexuality" can simply be a means to spice up a relationship. The only difficulty is: what's really good for the relationship and what's not? What does she do because she actually wants it and what does she do only to satisfy an unrealistic porn dream of mine. In my opinion it is our male responsibility to track down fetishes, faibles and urges...and find out if and how they are connected to our addiction. That also includes not to cut down any kind of kinky wish or behaviour we show.

Womankind doesn't want an all sugar-coated & honey-drenched male species, do they? Rough edges make us human and male... but even more so does respect and apprectiation. The balance is important and my personal goal for recovery is finding exactly this balanced state.
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