Author Topic: Surprise  (Read 43267 times)

Gracie

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #100 on: October 02, 2014, 07:02:50 PM »
I am really affected by SORP's struggle here.  It is all of the women's struggles at one point or another in this walk with our husbands as we go through this mine field.  And that is what it is.  We never know the excuse or justification that might be thrown our way as "the reason".   And when our husband says nothing to our questions, then we work on what we think it is.  Then we just keep getting diversions thrown our way.  Whether things are said to hurt us, or protect us, or to explain to us, it is the rollercoaster ride of a lifetime. 

For all the young men that read these comments, be up front with the woman or girl, do not hide it.  Deal with it full on.  You do owe that to someone you love.   For the ones that have hidden it.  Figure out a way to be truthful.  Do not risk being discovered.  Man up.  We keep hearing on here about a man's nature, he can't help but notice whatever it is about women.  Show some respect.  You chose this woman your are with.   Why did you choose her?  Is it because she is you soul mate?  If yes, then bare your soul.  Go back to when you chose.  Why did she choose you?  Are you that exact same person?  Do you still look at her through the eyes or love or do you look at her with eyes of comparison? 

Do not throw smoke bombs.  Love her.  Love her.  Show her the respect she deserves.  and Love her, as she is.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 07:41:03 AM by Gracie »

Gracie

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2015, 07:59:38 AM »
Gracie here.  I have been disappointed that a number of women have stopped posting on Reboot Nation.  I wish I knew why.  I stay because the hurt is so profound I would like men to understand their partner's response, to remember that there are two going through all of this.  So, I am going to post at least every two days things that I have learned during this time.  Today, I am going to post things that have changed with us and in our marriage.

The number one best thing is that he told me once I discovered it.  Maybe it wasn't the best way.  He is not a talker and sharer, but he became one for me.

1.  We go to bed at the same time every night.  We wait up if someone is at a meeting.------This is a great change!
2.  We hold each other now all through the night.  (We used to sleep on opposite sides of the bed)----This is a great change!
3.  We kiss hello and goodbye and hug every time one of us goes somewhere.---This is a great change!
4.  We go out----This is a great change!
5  We sit together on the couch.----This is a great change!
6.  We actually enjoy each other's company.-----One of the greatest changes.
7.  We tune in on each other's feelings in an instant.---This one is woohoo!
8.  We feel like a team that can get through anything.---Great thing.  For so long I felt all alone in dealing with things.
9.  We are connected in a way we never would have been before.---Great change.
10.  He holds me when I bottom out.

Now for some that are bleah that we are working on and we both understand.
1.  I have trouble traveling alone for my job.
2.  I have trouble being alone when he travels.  (not because he may look.)
3.  I still worry about how I look.
4.  I occasionally bottom out about all that happened.  (not as often, and it doesn't stay for as long.)
5.  ED comes along and whacks us in the head.

I know this is long. But I feel it is important. 
More later.




lte

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2015, 08:22:57 AM »
Gracie here.  I have been disappointed that a number of women have stopped posting on Reboot Nation.  I wish I knew why.  I stay because the hurt is so profound I would like men to understand their partner's response, to remember that there are two going through all of this.  So, I am going to post at least every two days things that I have learned during this time.  Today, I am going to post things that have changed with us and in our marriage.

The number one best thing is that he told me once I discovered it.  Maybe it wasn't the best way.  He is not a talker and sharer, but he became one for me.

1.  We go to bed at the same time every night.  We wait up if someone is at a meeting.------This is a great change!
2.  We hold each other now all through the night.  (We used to sleep on opposite sides of the bed)----This is a great change!
3.  We kiss hello and goodbye and hug every time one of us goes somewhere.---This is a great change!
4.  We go out----This is a great change!
5  We sit together on the couch.----This is a great change!
6.  We actually enjoy each other's company.-----One of the greatest changes.
7.  We tune in on each other's feelings in an instant.---This one is woohoo!
8.  We feel like a team that can get through anything.---Great thing.  For so long I felt all alone in dealing with things.
9.  We are connected in a way we never would have been before.---Great change.
10.  He holds me when I bottom out.

Now for some that are bleah that we are working on and we both understand.
1.  I have trouble traveling alone for my job.
2.  I have trouble being alone when he travels.  (not because he may look.)
3.  I still worry about how I look.
4.  I occasionally bottom out about all that happened.  (not as often, and it doesn't stay for as long.)
5.  ED comes along and whacks us in the head.

I know this is long. But I feel it is important. 
More later.

Gracie,

Thanks for posting that. It's one of the most positive things I've seen in a long time.

I truly appreciate the female forum members and feel that you serve a very important function in helping men see the harm that porn and masturbation have caused to their mates.


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Gracie

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2015, 07:37:23 AM »
Well I am back posting today.  I was reading through some of the journals about porn choice popping back into rebooters brains early in the morning, having a "still moment", going to sleep at night, being alone etc.  A big light bulb went off.  When I wake up in the night, wake up early, quiet myself, driving etc., that is when start thinking about him choosing porn.  (by the way, when I say choosing porn it is because he kept it secret so it was a choice so knowing someone will be hurt and you have to keep the secret makes it a choice)Thinking about what we have been through.  Wondering about how bottomed out my self esteem is.  (A lot of that now is he couldn't talk to me and share himself) 

So apparently there are some SOs that have the same problem about intrusive thoughts and our brain trying to go back.  So in the morning I get up make some coffee and do a little cleaning.  I guess it just goes to show, it is two going through this at the same time.  Our intrusive thoughts are not the same, but they have the same motivation:   repairing ourselves and our relationships.   

lte

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2015, 09:18:06 AM »
Those "still moments" can be very frightening for everyone. It's just us and our inner demons. :)


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Jimmy James

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #105 on: January 18, 2015, 12:55:33 PM »
Great thread.  Very educational.

I know I need to confess to me wife, but so far I have been too gutless to do so.  I know I need to just grow pair and do it, but ...

STR

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #106 on: January 18, 2015, 03:49:36 PM »
Hi Gracie -

One of the things that I have made a conscious effort to do (and that has also happened naturally, to some extent) since quitting porn has been to be more affectionate with my wife throughout the day. I try to hug and kiss her multiple times daily, which I didn't used to do (unless I thought it would lead to sex). I also try to think of her as a sexy woman, rather than focusing on her flaws. I tell myself periodically "I can't believe I get to make love with this woman! I'm a lucky man!", instead of dwelling on all of the women that I don't get to make love with.

All of this has had a huge (no pun intended) impact on curing my ED. For the past few months now my body has been working better than ever, and I get aroused just from kissing and touching her. I have learned from past experience that if I want my body to function properly with my wife, I have to keep thoughts of other women out of my head. And if I keep thoughts of other women out of my head, then my body functions great.

lte

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2015, 04:01:46 PM »
Hi Gracie -

One of the things that I have made a conscious effort to do (and that has also happened naturally, to some extent) since quitting porn has been to be more affectionate with my wife throughout the day. I try to hug and kiss her multiple times daily, which I didn't used to do (unless I thought it would lead to sex). I also try to think of her as a sexy woman, rather than focusing on her flaws. I tell myself periodically "I can't believe I get to make love with this woman! I'm a lucky man!", instead of dwelling on all of the women that I don't get to make love with.

All of this has had a huge (no pun intended) impact on curing my ED. For the past few months now my body has been working better than ever, and I get aroused just from kissing and touching her. I have learned from past experience that if I want my body to function properly with my wife, I have to keep thoughts of other women out of my head. And if I keep thoughts of other women out of my head, then my body functions great.
Nicely stated, STR.


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Gracie

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2015, 09:49:42 AM »
Jimmy James,
It is not a matter of "growing a pair".  I wish it was.  It is a matter of sharing your burden.  It is a matter of two facing this together.  I know a lot of people do not feel that way.  But so many are here to heal ED.  All of this comes into focus once the porn affects the addict.  In the meantime it has been affecting all of your relationships.  It affects  the marriage most of all because there is always the porn being present.  Always.  And we know.  Whether we are able to voice it or not, we sense that there is something.  We can't quite figure out what it is, but we know its there.  Someday hopefully you will tell her.  I discovered as you know from my post.  Him caring enough to tell me would have meant so much more.  Instead I had to hear the excuses.  The I was planning to quit.  I knew I should quit.  The I don't know why I did it.  The I knew I should tell you.  The its not about you. (Which I wrote about in Porn SO)  Then there were the comments he said to rationalize the use.  The ones that indicated it all started with me.  Those things make it much harder when you start the hard work of healing a marriage.  And believe it or not your marriage needs healed.   

Being married and working through this is not easy.  But it is worth it!

Gracie

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2015, 07:40:35 AM »
Well now that we have come so far, we have been talking about what happened and what things in our lives kept it going.  It is hard to hear that he was being very self centered and mean in his comments (during use).  It is harder still to discuss how those words have stuck like glue in my brain.  Super glue I might add.  So of course anytime ED happens, my brain goes to they must have been true.  And then to they are absolutely true.  That I think is why I am so rough on men that blame their wives.  My husband admitted he was so self centered that when I had neck surgery and became distraught during oral sex because I did not think I could do that anymore he was more concerned he would have no more blow jobs than he was about my health.  I was upset because it was and is something I really enjoy.  But hearing the depth of the self centeredness of him is tough.  (Not that way now).

Sooo we have started doing sensate focus.  Kind of like the reuniting.  We did the first body exploration and touching last night, no sexual touch.  Very relaxing and made us focus only on touch, not work, not problems, not anything else only touch.  I hope this helps us as we continue to grow in our relationship. 

Peace

lte

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #110 on: January 21, 2015, 08:03:59 AM »
It's amazing how self centered a man can become because of porn and masturbation.


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Gracie

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2015, 06:01:03 AM »
Well sensate focus works unless we get side-tracked.  Maybe not disciplined enough.  But we keep doing the exercises anyway, we enjoy them.  I was messaging another person and we were talking about married people going through this and the number of divorces we are seeing on forums.  So sad that something like this can simply go out and ruin a relationship.  Pictures and fantasy  can ruin a real live human relationship.

Sure there are other problems, but with porn which came first?  If someone has been masturbating since 10-12, then the porn came first.  Those images and that method of turning on and tuning out has become ingrained.  Then starts comparisons to wife, not enough sex, not daring enough, not attractive enough.  She starts getting treated different, she reacts.  Kids start getting treated different, they react.  Work becomes a pain. Life becomes and pain.  Then one day it all comes into focus.  It is discovered, or told about.  The years suddenly come into focus and things start to make sense.  The wife wants answers.  And sometimes it cannot be worked through. 

I know I felt at a certain point I did not think I could.  The betrayal was too great.  But the love was strong.  The road to healing was rough.  Like climbing Everest with no oxygen or food at times.  And there are still moments that it overwhelms me.  There are moments for him as well because he knew the depth of what he had done, and he thought I would leave because he failed me.  But we are still here.

It just saddens me because pictures and fantasies can ruin a marriage.

Peace

lte

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #112 on: January 24, 2015, 09:22:22 AM »
Well sensate focus works unless we get side-tracked.  Maybe not disciplined enough.  But we keep doing the exercises anyway, we enjoy them.  I was messaging another person and we were talking about married people going through this and the number of divorces we are seeing on forums.  So sad that something like this can simply go out and ruin a relationship.  Pictures and fantasy  can ruin a real live human relationship.

Sure there are other problems, but with porn which came first?  If someone has been masturbating since 10-12, then the porn came first.  Those images and that method of turning on and tuning out has become ingrained.  Then starts comparisons to wife, not enough sex, not daring enough, not attractive enough.  She starts getting treated different, she reacts.  Kids start getting treated different, they react.  Work becomes a pain. Life becomes and pain.  Then one day it all comes into focus.  It is discovered, or told about.  The years suddenly come into focus and things start to make sense.  The wife wants answers.  And sometimes it cannot be worked through. 

I know I felt at a certain point I did not think I could.  The betrayal was too great.  But the love was strong.  The road to healing was rough.  Like climbing Everest with no oxygen or food at times.  And there are still moments that it overwhelms me.  There are moments for him as well because he knew the depth of what he had done, and he thought I would leave because he failed me.  But we are still here.

It just saddens me because pictures and fantasies can ruin a marriage.

Peace
It's an unbelievably dangerous force. My life has been ruined by it; literally. The cost, in dollars, is well into six figures, perhaps even seven figures. As I approach retirement I am still paying on a mortgage and have nearly $100,000 to go. Had I not destroyed my marriage my for,dr home would be paid off by now. My ex-wife's finances are, to the best of my knowledge, in shambles as well, probably worse than my own. So now we're up to seven figures, no doubt. But there's another failed marriage in my history and negative effects for her so let's toss in the price of another home there as well and were sprinting towards a mil' and a half that my little "hobby" has cost.

I suspect that masturbation plays a huge role in the numbers of divorces that occur these days. Think of it like this; it's no secret that most men will do damn near anything to obtain the favors of a sex partner. If they shunt their sexual energy via masturbation this force of attraction is diverted away from their respective spouses, so the incentive to ride out the normal ips and downs of marriage is diminished. Porn and masturbation, undoubtedly, has an inestimable social cost.


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STR

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2015, 09:44:15 AM »
There was a strip club in my hometown when I was young with a sign out front that said "Harmless visual stimuli".

I never went into the club, but the message on that sign really affected me. I spent most of my life believing that porn was harmless, and that I wasn't hurting anyone by looking at it. I didn't realize the damage that PMO was causing to my marriage until I learned about PIED, but PIED was really only a symptom of a greater problem that involved a rupture in the emotional intimacy that should have existed between my wife and I but didn't because of my "harmless" PMO habit...

Gracie

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #114 on: January 26, 2015, 07:32:54 AM »
Yes, Harmless visual stimuli.  But what does it do?  It sometimes shows you what you can't have.  It shows you what you don't have.  It shows you unrealistic visions of women.  (ie constantly turned on wanting sex)  It shows you that your wife is not what you want. 

For everybody that says to me it is only looking and looking is okay because there is no touching, I now reply are you touching yourself?  Because then you are also thinking about them touching you, so there is touching.  So it is not okay. 

Choose the one you are with!  You will be rewarded!

lte

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #115 on: January 26, 2015, 07:59:39 AM »
Yes, Harmless visual stimuli.  But what does it do?  It sometimes shows you what you can't have.  It shows you what you don't have.  It shows you unrealistic visions of women.  (ie constantly turned on wanting sex)  It shows you that your wife is not what you want. 

For everybody that says to me it is only looking and looking is okay because there is no touching, I now reply are you touching yourself?  Because then you are also thinking about them touching you, so there is touching.  So it is not okay. 

Choose the one you are with!  You will be rewarded!
Agreed!  As I see it, the matter comes down to seeking sexual excitement without a partner. That can't work.


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Bibbity

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #116 on: January 26, 2015, 01:08:29 PM »
Gracie here.  I have been disappointed that a number of women have stopped posting on Reboot Nation.  I wish I knew why.  I stay because the hurt is so profound I would like men to understand their partner's response, to remember that there are two going through all of this....

Hi Gracie!  I know this post was not intended for me necessarily but I did stop posting for quite a while and mainly because it was affecting my mental health.  It is very hard to try and try to help people who do not want to change, it's hard to read some of the things on here and not cry yourself to sleep at night and it's especially hard to be reminded of the type of world my daughters are going to grow up in.  I am not one to put my head in the sand but sometimes we need a break from that pit of despair so we can adjust our lens on the world in a more realistic way.

Anyway I may or may not continue to post but I certainly wish everyone all the best :)
In order to rise from its own ashes, a Phoenix first must burn.”
― Octavia E. Butler

Gracie

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #117 on: January 26, 2015, 09:26:44 PM »
Bibbity,
Not targeted at the women.  Was talking about how hard it is to be a woman posting here for the exact reasons you stated.  Men worrying about ED not relationship so much.  Yes it is hard to be here.  I sometimes do not post for the same reason.  Mental health.

Bibbity

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #118 on: January 27, 2015, 08:32:01 AM »
Bibbity,
Not targeted at the women.  Was talking about how hard it is to be a woman posting here for the exact reasons you stated.  Men worrying about ED not relationship so much.  Yes it is hard to be here.  I sometimes do not post for the same reason.  Mental health.

Yes!  It is very hard to see men talking about using women to reboot or talk about how ED is ruining their relationships when we know it's not about the ED.
In order to rise from its own ashes, a Phoenix first must burn.”
― Octavia E. Butler

lte

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #119 on: January 27, 2015, 10:14:26 AM »
Bibbity,
Not targeted at the women.  Was talking about how hard it is to be a woman posting here for the exact reasons you stated.  Men worrying about ED not relationship so much.  Yes it is hard to be here.  I sometimes do not post for the same reason.  Mental health.

Yes!  It is very hard to see men talking about using women to reboot or talk about how ED is ruining their relationships when we know it's not about the ED.
One observation I've made is that some people come here to fix ED, others come to fix their lives. I think that the second group will be more successful.


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STR

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #120 on: January 27, 2015, 12:07:34 PM »
Quote
One observation I've made is that some people come here to fix ED, others come to fix their lives. I think that the second group will be more successful.

In my case, I had always tried (but failed) to fix my life, and it wasn't until I realized I was suffering from PIED that I found YBR and started trying to fix my ED. Before long I realized that my ED was a symptom of a much bigger problem, and so I started trying to fix that problem.

Now that I have fixed my relationship problems with my wife, my ED has gone away and we are happier than we have ever been.

chiefmitch88

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #121 on: January 27, 2015, 12:49:18 PM »
lte, I agree that the second group will be more successful. Do you think there might be an effective way to help move more of the ED obsessers from column A into the life rebooters of column B? There seems to be a lot of focusing on a problem rather than creating a solution. Perhaps there is a gap in information here that neglects the individual's necessity for evaluating the escapist and obsessive tendencies of the addict. Whereby we just continue to replace one addiction/obsession for another. (i.e Sex/Objectification,Using women to rewire, blaming the world for our problems, whining for sympathy, resisting acceptance, etc).

Granted, there are a good number of men in the forum who are single. They might simply need the tools to get themselves into the dating pool. There are plenty of handy facts and figures to show them how to overcome that issue. There are people out there who will use that knowledge for malicious intent and seek only to become pick up artists. Knowledge is power, you can't refute that. Ultimately, they will find emptiness at the end of that road as well and find themselves right back where they started. I pray for those poor souls. I feel that we can teach our young women to spot these sorts of men. We can also teach them that a relationship is not the pinnacle of existence as the media brainwashes us into believing.

Young women are put through the ringer of our society and rarely come out the other side whole. Numbers on sexual assault and rape are astronomical. My wife can be counted among those statistics. It has affected her in ways that I cannot begin to fathom. Also, her father was not around during her childhood because he was a philanderer of epic proportions.  She is my family though, I love her. I still don't feel that I grasp all the pain I caused her with my addiction. And I know that I would benefit greatly from some information that addresses issues such as the effects of sexual assault on the human brain or codependency in relation to sexual addictions. Or how to broach discussions with the opposite sex that uncover unhealthy expectations for their SO.

I know when I first started my reboot I made the mistake of rebooting for my sex life alone. It took failing several times to recognize that I allowed many areas of my life to deteriorate. My career didn't fulfill me, I had no self-confidence, my marriage fell apart, one by one my friendships disappeared, life had become a grind. It takes many positive relationships to support one person and I put far too many expectations on my relationship with my SO. I expected her to be my everything. The thing they forget to tell you is that no one can be your everything. People can bring light to your life, yes, but it takes a village to help us each find our path.

Some people are finding that village for the first time here. I choose not to believe in lost causes. Each individual has a unique story and by classifying them within the hopeless column A we make them another number that isn't deserving of our compassion. If most are like me, they didn't understand that the choices they were making were chipping away at their foundations. I had come to accept that I was simply born lacking. Maybe by  expanding the information that RBN provides we may be able to help these people help themselves. They know they need help but the unique circumstance of each person that comes here to find help may prevent immediate success. By providing links to other resources that address physical, sexual, emotional, spiritual traumas we may be able to enlighten people to their story and help them to begin writing new chapters that are filled with contentment.


lte

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #122 on: January 27, 2015, 01:13:16 PM »
lte, I agree that the second group will be more successful. Do you think there might be an effective way to help move more of the ED obsessers from column A into the life rebooters of column B? There seems to be a lot of focusing on a problem rather than creating a solution. Perhaps there is a gap in information here that neglects the individual's necessity for evaluating the escapist and obsessive tendencies of the addict. Whereby we just continue to replace one addiction/obsession for another. (i.e Sex/Objectification,Using women to rewire, blaming the world for our problems, whining for sympathy, resisting acceptance, etc).

Granted, there are a good number of men in the forum who are single. They might simply need the tools to get themselves into the dating pool. There are plenty of handy facts and figures to show them how to overcome that issue. There are people out there who will use that knowledge for malicious intent and seek only to become pick up artists. Knowledge is power, you can't refute that. Ultimately, they will find emptiness at the end of that road as well and find themselves right back where they started. I pray for those poor souls. I feel that we can teach our young women to spot these sorts of men. We can also teach them that a relationship is not the pinnacle of existence as the media brainwashes us into believing.
IMHO, the PUA culture, using women to rewire, etc, are just continuations of the same behaviors as PMO, it all points back to a single source. A person has to learn to be in control of their sexuality, it's that simple.



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Re: Surprise
« Reply #123 on: January 27, 2015, 02:37:51 PM »
I don't dispute that. Anyone coming here knows that they must get their sexuality under control. But a messy sexuality might be an indicator of a messy life. Maybe those people never understood that they had any control. Obsessive/Compulsive personalities can probably relate to the feeling that the have no handle on their behavior. And after reading thousands of words from hundreds of rebooters I have come to find out that people in the midst of a difficult time don't feel that their problems are simple.

They may know that porn is bad, but if it is the only comfort they have ever known it is awfully hard to see that when they are watching their world crumble around them. If they have been brainwashed to self-identify through their sexuality the problem is deeper than the sexuality alone. They must go through adolescence from the beginning. You may be dealing with people with the emotional quotient of a 10 year old. We have hundreds of articles relating to the physiological response of the body and mind to porn addiction. The journals of the people here speak of the ways it affects our lives. Life coaching people toward a fulfilling purpose or calling might be an effective means of shifting rebooters into that higher gear that is required if they are to succeed.

Also, I feel you skirted around contemplating any other points I brought up in my previous post.


Gracie

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Re: Surprise
« Reply #124 on: January 27, 2015, 04:24:12 PM »
Young women are put through the ringer of our society and rarely come out the other side whole. Numbers on sexual assault and rape are astronomical. My wife can be counted among those statistics. It has affected her in ways that I cannot begin to fathom. Also, her father was not around during her childhood because he was a philanderer of epic proportions.  She is my family though, I love her. I still don't feel that I grasp all the pain I caused her with my addiction. And I know that I would benefit greatly from some information that addresses issues such as the effects of sexual assault on the human brain or codependency in relation to sexual addictions. Or how to broach discussions with the opposite sex that uncover unhealthy expectations for their SO.

I can tell you that sexual assault/abuse affects a lot of areas of a survivor's life.  Sometimes it depends on the age that the abuse occurred and what the abuse was and how long it went on.  Each person is unique.  If you let me know some of the things you would like to know I can post links to the information. When you talk about how to broach discussions, who is the person that has unhealthy expectations?  The addict or their partner?  I can tell you the things that worked in my situation.  Because it is very difficult to work through.

I think that for the single men, the answer is for the older ones here to continue to stress that the time devoted to sex in a relationship is at most an hour a day.  (I know it is less most of the time) but what is going on the other 23 hours a day?  And talk about the true importance of building a life together, getting to know someone before sex realizing that the brain interaction is more important.  The communication, the ability to talk.  I do not think guys get that now.  The more secure people are in their relationship the more everything else falls into place. 

I can tell you that telling my husband what was needed for me to feel secure was very difficult.  I knew I ran the risk of losing him forever if he did not understand what I needed to stay.  But I knew I could not continue on as it was.  Fortunately he got it.  However, the smoke bombs continued, and even now I have to call him on it sometimes.  It takes a lot of strength.  But, chiefmitch, maybe we can change this.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 04:26:12 PM by Gracie »