Author Topic: 27 And Done With Porn  (Read 3527 times)

Non-Dual Adventurer

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Re: 27 And Done With Porn
« Reply #225 on: November 07, 2019, 12:10:10 AM »
Thank you Blue. Unfortunately I just relapsed. It seems that something happens right around day 10 that seems to always catch me at the moment. My last streaks have all been 7-12 days long, so there's a day somewhere in there where immense urges come. I need to sit with them before the peeking occurs, not after. That makes it much much worse. I must admit I spent the entire day on and off today pretty much peeking at P on my phone. I didn't do any of the practice I was supposed to do for my gig on Sunday. It is like I always use the stress of an upcoming performance to let myself slip, and then I use the guilt of not having practised to let myself slip further. Like something in me knows that this performance will be really good if I just practice but it wants me to stay down and stay needing porn so that I can never achieve anything as a performer. Because believe me, when I'm not PMO'ing my brains out, I'm a fucking shit hot musician... and that's what makes it so sad. P takes away my confidence and motivation completely to make music.

For fuck's sake. Onwards. Tomorrow is a new day. Fuck.

Non-Dual Adventurer

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Re: 27 And Done With Porn
« Reply #226 on: November 07, 2019, 02:43:08 PM »
Day 1

Not all is lost. Met T this morning for a hike, and so started the day right with endorphins. Came home, showered, started compiling and printing the stuff I need for my performance on Sunday.

Managed to not let this one little relapse turn into a binge, and I'm happy about that. I read an article last night after I relapsed that a relapse is only really a relapse if you binge. I think there could something to be said for that kind of thinking. I'll dig it up when I get a moment and post it on here. The theory is that when we reset our counters to zero after a one-time lapse, we are engaging in a form of self-punishment. But the longer our streak, the less progress we actually lose from a one-off relapse, as long as we don't turn it into a binge. One prevalent nofapper says that we ought to subtract 5 days off our streak for a one-time MO, and 10 days off for a PMO. That way, we are still acknowledging that we fucked up, but not totally punishing ourselves since our overall progress isn't entirely lost, and that's ultimately what matters.

Despite this, I was on day 10 and I PMO'd, so it's back to zero for now :-)

Proud of myself that I meditated after relapse and didn't let myself sink back down into a binge.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 07:00:08 PM by Non-Dual Adventurer »

BlueHeronFan

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Re: 27 And Done With Porn
« Reply #227 on: November 07, 2019, 08:32:55 PM »
Sorry to hear about the lapse, but it's awesome that it's not turning into a binge.

Your exactly right about sitting with the urges before peeking and not after. Don't give the addiction a foothold in your life. The thing about dopamine, I've learned recently, is that it's not actually about pleasure. It's about anticipation of pleasure. Dopamine is the wanting, the craving, the urge. When we fantasize and peek and edge and stuff, we're setting the dopamine circuit into overdrive, and that leads to relapse. In a way, we're actually more addicted to anticipating PMO than to PMO itself (I can remember some of my last binges: edging to non-explicit sexy videos. Accidentally getting to O was like a disappointment because the anticipation and the heightened state of wanting was over. The addictive pleasure was in delaying the actual pleasure as long as possible and staying in a state of anticipation.)

Get back at it (it sounds like you already have). Relapse is always closer than we want it to be, don't give it the advantage by cozying up to it with peeking and fantasizing.

Do or die

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Re: 27 And Done With Porn
« Reply #228 on: November 07, 2019, 09:19:34 PM »
on the basis of my 5 years of experience i know first 2-4 days are so hard. but at this point if we fail then remember we always have an another chance.
i know we relapsed 999 times. but there is chance at 1000th time to reboot. good things always tends to something good happen in life. so from today set your goal, always think benefits of nofap. and do it this time. you can do it.
Its not about stopping. Its about to accept that you are stopped it.

Non-Dual Adventurer

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Re: 27 And Done With Porn
« Reply #229 on: November 08, 2019, 10:38:35 AM »
Day 2

Wife launched into an all-out assault on me last night for relapsing 2 days ago. I told her I appreciate it makes her angry but taking it out on me just has a negative effect, and if anything it makes me more likely to relapse because it causes guilt, shame, and stress, which are all huge triggers. She said that I'm saying it's her fault, and she can't believe I'd say that, and that she has a right to be angry because she wants and deserves more from her husband than a porn addict.

Whatever other reasons I gave as to why I thought that this maybe wasn't the most constructive conversation, she just said 'oh so it's all my fault!!!'

...NOT what I was saying but okay...

I tried to tell her to look on the bright side, that the last relapse I didn't binge which is a big step for me, that I did the right thing for 9 days everyday, and before that however many days it was, and before that, and before that. I tried to explain that not everything is lost and that it is a learning curve. She said she deserves more than a 10 day streak.

She says that every time I relapse she has a right to be angry. Well, that just makes me angry. I tried to reason with her that when somebody comes at you aggressively, the natural response is to be defensive. Being angry literally achieves nothing for the addict. An addict needs to feel supported and loved. Her retort was that she has nobody to talk about this to, because I told her not to? (Not actually true), and that OMG she can't believe I don't think we're on the same team! She said that she feels angry when I relapse because I'm choosing a computer screen over her. I told her that she can tell the whole fucking world about it if it means that she doesn't get angry at me. I told her that I have never chosen a computer screen over her. What I choose, is seemingly innocent activities that end up triggering me. Then the addiction takes over and that's when it escalates and I'm no longer in control.

Anything I said she just took as me blaming her.

I don't know what to do.

Just now she called me and said that she loves me and that she's really sorry and that she had a 'lapse' in her ability to hold it together and support me in the right way, and that she's also been hormonal these past few days because of her birth control.. I said I love her too, and I'm sorry that I'm a porn addict... (It's not like I'm not doing my very best to quit this drug already, though -- I didn't say that just thought it).

The truth is she made me feel kind of low and worthless attacking me like that. She says she has an account on here and she reads sometimes, and I encouraged her to read more on the partners' forum to find more effective ways to help and support me. Also, reading about the science behind the addiction would help her to understand that it's not about her personally, or about me 'choosing a computer screen'. Her whole tirade just made me feel super down, especially as none of my reasoning was going through. She wanted me to just shut up and take it while she attacked me because I was the one in the 'wrong' for being a porn addict, and she had 'every right to be angry'. Fuck that. If that's how I keep getting treated when I have a genuine disease, then I don't know what I'm gonna do.

What I do know is that I need to stay clean from this bullshit.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 10:44:17 AM by Non-Dual Adventurer »

quitforeverthenwin2

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Re: 27 And Done With Porn
« Reply #230 on: November 08, 2019, 02:56:21 PM »
Hey been trying to catch up on your journal, will aim to read through the rest later but, looks like a lot of stuff going on right now, so I guess I"ll try and comment.

Hey man, really sorry to hear that about the argument. Hmmm. Man, that sounds like a unique situation. But I guess, I'll put in my 2 cents which might be super wrong. But even if it is super wrong, maybe reading it can just get your mind jogging like "man what a dumbass idea Quit wrote, but a better idea would be...." lol


Caveats: You have a lot more relationship experience than me. Some of my ideas about relationships may be a little old school. My ideas may be a bit outside the box, but again maybe could lead you to your own solution.


For me, the best relationship I ever had. Was pretty politically incorrect. We were not 50/50 partners, who were the exact same. Where'd I'd cry on her shoulder and she was my therapist. I didn't share tons of vulnerability with my girlfriend. At the time my work life was so shit. But I'd just say like "hey, works a little tough" with almost no emotion just to let her know what is going on. She'd say "oh, it'll be fine". Then we'd move on and have fun. ( our relationship ended with us both super upset as she was not permanently in the country)
When I've been TOO vulnerable with women, it's not gone well. (not saying, we have to be invulnerable).

The way I look at it, in a relationship sure the man and women are equally important and deserve full respect, but the man should be the leader. It was done that way for what a couple thousand years? When I say leader, it's not some anti women. "Do as I say!" type of deal. It's about aiming to take responsibility, holding in emotions sometimes for the benefit of the wife/ kids.

 A little aside: This book the willpower instinct, talks about how people with more willpower, are much more successful in life. We evolved a part of our brain that allows us to control our emotions. It evolved and is what makes people, people. Basically it made me realize, like willpower, being annoyed or upset and holding it in and stuff is just a part of life and a huge part of what makes successful relationships.

I think women want a man to be strong. No matter what theories people come up with sitting at a desk in sociology classes or whatever.


So your wife was upset about the relapse. Does that make you feel worse? Sure. And that's natural. Addiction sucks, and it makes us let ourselves and other's down. We'll be upset when we let ourselves down and other people will sometimes be upset when we let them down.

Let's look at this from the "women want some strength and security from a man, thus a man should act like a leader at times" perspective. How would a leader handle this?

If you were going into battle and your commander like fucked up a plan for the battle, you came in pissed off: like

you/ the army "WTF! That was your job, don't you care about us, we're all going to die now!"

commander: " Hey, that's really not helping anything, what I need from you is total support, this is just making it worse. Us generals need total support you know  :-\ "

Argument ensues.....

Would that inspire your confidence to go into battle?

What if instead.

You/the army whatever: "what the fuck you messed up the battle plan, we're all going to die. Do you think we don't fucking matter. You'll just let us die!?"

Commander Superboss: " I apologize gentlemen, I am working on correcting the issue presently"  (super calmly and confidently)

The army: " What the fuck do you mean you apologize, you SUCK YOU WORTHLESS PEACE OF SHIT"

Commander Superboss: "Gentleman, I understand you are upset. Again I will apologize. I am working on a revised battle plan for tomorrow, I will see you all in the morning."

I think sometimes when we are the leader/ being a strong husband father whatever. We gotta hold in our vulnerability and act a little more confident then we are even if we are not. The cool thing about it is, I notice when I have to hold in my emotions and act more positive then I am to idk coach somebody, help somebody or seduce a woman lol. It actually helps me to feel more confident and stronger.


The vibe I got from the whole thing was yeah, she was disappointed for sure and yeah that sucks. She wanted and expected more.
 
"that she has a right to be angry because she wants and deserves more from her husband than a porn addict."

I take that as basically like. "Hey your my husband, I want you to be strong and to have faith in you, WHAT THE FUCK be stronger, I want you to be a strong leader".

Can you control the fact that you already relapsed IN THE PAST. Of course not, you can't change the past. But you could maybe have shown some strength in your initial response.

Like that commander I talked about, like he fucked up people were mad at him. But he could totally handle the anger ( at least he acted like it). Something about that, the anger not affecting him at all, in my opinion would just be reassuring, kind of like "okay, man this guy must have something figured out, or has ice in his veins or something".

But the response of  like "I need you to support me right now". Would not inspire confidence if the leader says something like that.

So on the surface it's like:

1) A mistake happened, and you are doing your best. It has nothing to do with your wife who you love.
2) She is upset and just doesn't "get" it.
3) You ask for support.
4) What the fuck it's MY FAULT!?!?
5) No babe.
6) WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT"S MY FAULT YOU PEACE OF SHIT lol (huge argument ensues).

But looking at it from another lens, the lens of leadership of a women wanting strength.

1) The lapse happened, it has nothing to do with your wife etc. (no change here) (perceived as perhaps not as much strength as she wants, not as much leadership)
2) Your wife (the underlying meaning, although she kind of straight up said it.  " WHAT THE FUCK, I SELECTED YOU AS MY HUSBAND, YOUR THE LEADER WHY ARE YOU BEING WEAK" " NOW I FEEL SCARED AND I FEEL LIKE SHIT, ARE YOU REALLY WEAK? FUCK, THE PRIMITIVE PART OF MY SUBCONSCIOUS IS WORRIED THAT ME AND MY BABIES WILL GET EATEN BY LIONS BECAUSE YOU MIGHT BE WEAK. ARE YOU WEAK? CAN YOU REASSURE ME OF YOUR LEADERSHIP PLEASE? (I know this still sucks).
3) " I can't handle this now etc. etc." ( I can't lead, I need your support. I can not handle your anger) ( Yup, damn right I am not leading, I can't handle this shit)
4) Her: AAAAGHHHHHHH!!!!


So it was like
Mistake
Wife wants reassurance of leadership ability
Double down on not leading.
Enraged wife.

So yeah, you were down and felt like you needed support after the relapse. But the relapse also shook your wife and she needed some reassurance and reassurance of your leadership. So those two opposing goals didn't work. Because the seeking support etc. at that moment was the opposite of reassuring/ leading. 


Also man, sometimes in recovery groups and stuff there is this idea like "The spouse boyfriend/ girlfriend" has to deal with ANYTHING the other person does because the addiction is totally not our fault or whatever.

(Not saying this is what you're doing). I've heard people in recovery groups tell all sorts of stories.
One guy, had a sex addiction and would bang prostitutes all the time. His wife called him a whore mongering douche bag. He talked about what a bitch she was for not understanding it was a disease and the whole recovery group agreed that she was no good.

But idk man: He married her, there was a commitment made. He broke that commitment, disease or no disease. I can kind of see her point. She marries a dude and he's off banging prostitutes, she is pissed off and he's mad at her for not being understanding.

Another girl had this crazy sex life with her boyfriend (and also cheated on him a shit ton). Then decided she could never have sex with him while she recovered. The dude was upset, he was dating this girl with this wild sex life and then she after cheating on him decides they can't have sex anymore.

I don't subscribe to the disease theory myself. But I think people are still going to hold us responsible for our actions, pretty much no matter what. Disease or not. Not saying this to chastise you, I get it relapse suck and are hard as fuck and it's nothing to be ashamed of, but in my opinion if we do something that upsets someone saying to them "I have a disease" doesn't necessarily mean they have to just be okay with it and whatever upset them doesn't count anymore.

Maybe if I were a mental patient in an asylum and and my alternate universe girlfriend was visiting and I said or did some crazy shit, it's fair to be mad at her if she did not understand when I or my doctor told her I had a disease.

But if I am in a relationship with someone, two adults, me choosing to be there.  I think it's fair for my girlfriend/wife what ever to get upset about what I do, or expect me to have some ability to keep commitments disease or no disease.

I think that's fair. If due to my disease I don't want to be responsible for any actions I take, that's fine and a choice I can make. There are places I can find that. Mental institution. Straight Jacket. Criminally insane. I can marry some alien hybrid half centaur Cleopatra I imagined in my padded cell. But if I am going to get married in the real world and don't want to live in a mental institution, get the benefits of having a wife etc. then I guess I'll be held responsible for my actions, disease or not. I think that's fair and don't really see how it'd be fair otherwise.

Anyways man, long story short. Sucks about the lapse, but get right back on that horse!

You couldn't control the lapse, after it happened.
But maybe you could have tried to act in a way that showed leadership and inspired confidence and security in your wife
The argument is in the past, so you can't control that. But moving forward maybe you can perhaps try and handle this like a leader and show a bit of confidence and strength (even if you don't feel it). What would commander superboss do? lol

Also bro this is just about this one situation and one take on it. From what I read in the early part of your journal, you've done some super badass stuff, starting businesses moved to different countries already married. So I think you can handle this shit like a boss too. It's just a time and a place thing. Sometimes it's time to pull out the boss boots. IMO

But yeah man, I think support is super important. But maybe your wife, has certain needs/ wants (you showing some leadership and reassurance) that means she straight up can't support you at all times in this issue, because during some of the times you'll have to be showing the leadership, not being supported. This is all good, it'll prob actually help you feel better imo. Plus, man there is a ton of good support out there. If you want 100% support at all times, I think that's simply got to come from people who went through the same shit/ are going through the same shit. Which you can hopefully get here. Having a wife obviously presents unique challenges (as we saw) but a lot of us are doing this totally single some guys are killing it while single (Blueheron for example) so sufficient support does exist outside the relationship, maybe your wife's support (when it is there) can sometimes be looked at as just like bonus support?

« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 03:57:39 PM by quitforeverthenwin2 »

BlueHeronFan

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Re: 27 And Done With Porn
« Reply #231 on: November 08, 2019, 10:40:37 PM »
Like quit said, this is a tough situation, and I don't know if there's anything I can say that's actually helpful. But here's my two cents (now you're up to four!)

You are totally right to want love and support from the people in your life.
Your wife is totally right to be upset when you relapse. Even if it isn't an explicit choice of screens over her, it is still a choice that damages the relationship.

I remember watching something about someone recovering from drug addiction. She said that when she was getting clean and dealing with urges, she always sort of wanted and expected her husband to be extra supportive and understanding, but he was just like, "Deal with it and don't do drugs." I understand the desire for support, but I also get the fact that it probably won't come from the people in my life. They don't understand addiction, can't understand it, so our behavior is just a painful deviation from normal. Not using porn is normal, why should they give us sympathy and support for having a hard time with normal? (Or so they might say)

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: Addiction is our thing to deal with. It seems unfair to me to ask someone else to take on the burden of dealing with it for us/with us. They can be around us, and they can be helpful, but the ultimate responsibility is on us, not them.

And the main point is that, on some level, relapse is always a choice. Sure, there comes a point when the addicted brain takes over and we blank out for a few hours, but we made choices before that point that took us past the point of no return. Part of what has driven my recovery effort this year was the realization that I was allowing my addiction to continue. I always thought and talked about how I wanted to be done with it, but I never did what I actually had to do to stay clean. This year, I have really taken more responsibility for the little decisions and triggers (when I'm still in control).

If we're ever going to be able to recover, we have to recognize that we always choose to relapse. Maybe not super consciously, but it's always a choice, whether that's a choice to go to a porn site or to lie in bed surrounded by triggers. If relapsing isn't a choice, then we don't have any control over it and trying to get better is a waste of time. If relapsing really is beyond our control, then why bother trying not to relapse?

Maybe I'm missing the point (it's way past my bedtime), but I gave the disclaimer earlier.

Your wife is right to say she deserves more than 10 days clean. You are right to say that you deserve more support. You really do both want the same thing, but the fact is you are the only one who can really do anything about it. I can only imagine how, if there were someone in my daily life who really loved me and knew about my addiction, it would be so frustrating and discouraging and painful for her to want to do something to help but to know that she's ultimately completely unable to do anything. She's invested in your success, but there's also nothing, realistically speaking, she can do. It's all up to you.

And I realize that can sound kind of punitive or something, but think of it in a more hopeful way. This isn't a life sentence: it really is all up to you (and not random chance or good luck)!