Author Topic: Misogynistic language on here  (Read 225 times)

PE30

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Misogynistic language on here
« on: September 16, 2018, 03:30:39 AM »
There's been quite a lot of misogynistic language on here recently. People describing porn actresses as filthy sluts and so on. Or saying that women on Tinder all have STDs.

These are people's daughters, sisters, loved ones. Nurturing a hatred of women as part of your reboot is the dictionary definition of two wrongs not making a right. Respect is fundamental to any reboot.
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mousemat1

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2018, 03:48:42 AM »
Well said!

Finwë

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2018, 04:40:08 AM »
Developing an aversion to promiscuity/promiscuous women is probably a good sign, imo
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Gracie

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2018, 05:29:01 AM »
An aversion to promiscuous women?  Perhaps women here should speak unkindly of promiscuous men.  Men who reach out to other women because their wives are (fill in this blank with whatever the wife does not do, lose weight, wear makeup, look like promiscuous women) in order to have the sex to which they are entitled. 

PMO is relationship focused.  If you love the woman, communicate with her she will be there for you.  If you do not have a woman in your life now, do it for your future wife.


Finwë

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2018, 05:33:52 AM »
An aversion to promiscuous women?  Perhaps women here should speak unkindly of promiscuous men. 

Some women do this fairly often and it doesn't bother me much. Don't know why you'd think it would.
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Mroctupus

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2018, 05:37:03 AM »
I think respecting opposite sex in a necessary part of recovery from pmo. We need to start looking at women as daughters, sisters and mothers than sexual organs and an object. They care for their personal gain so do we and we need to accept that.

PE30

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2018, 08:34:47 AM »
Developing an aversion to promiscuity/promiscuous women is probably a good sign, imo

It's got nothing to do with whether the object of your lust is a faithfully married woman, or a cam girl, or a porn actress. The point is that as guys we have a responsibility to be respectful, not to objectify people, to love exclusively the one we're with.

I think that, if we're going to direct our anger towards anything, it's towards the industry that makes its billions primarily off the back of the exploitation of women.
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DoneAtLast

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2018, 04:39:47 PM »
There's been quite a lot of misogynistic language on here recently. People describing porn actresses as filthy sluts and so on. Or saying that women on Tinder all have STDs.

These are people's daughters, sisters, loved ones. Nurturing a hatred of women as part of your reboot is the dictionary definition of two wrongs not making a right. Respect is fundamental to any reboot.

Agree 100%!

Hatred/suspicion of women is, at best, a sign of emotional pain and trauma.  But, for most on here, it is a learned habit, largely fed by years and years of porn.  Porn is easier to consume if we assume that it is the natural disposition of the fairer sex to be slutty and put on shows for us.  Many non porn media sources feed this narrative.  I posted a while ago a youtube video where the narrator makes the case that The Big Bang Theory is horribly misogynistic, but gets away with it because of adorable nerd characters.  This is to say nothing of the rest of TV which is far worse.

Often, when a woman is considered promiscuous, they aren't... they just aren't interested in the guys who think she's promiscuous, and the label becomes the justification.  Most real "promiscuous women" are likely just severely emotionally damaged, not unlike the porn addicts here, or ones who have been looking for love and have been sold a bad bill of goods by all the men in her life, possibly even including her family.  Better than developing an aversion... treat them like beautiful human beings deserving of your care and respect.  It doesn't mean you have to get entangled in promiscuity, and if you need to keep your distance to avoid temptation then by all means do so, but nevertheless treat them with more dignity than apparently any other guy ever has. 

Catch yourself when you start feeling these negative emotions, and figure them out.  That will be very helpful to your recovery. 

Reformed Fapper

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2018, 10:40:13 PM »
Respecting people is all well and good, but if they actually are sluts and are promiscuous for the sake of getting some (oftentimes anonymous) sex out of men, then they cant really be called respectable ones. Some have no shame in using their bodies in order to get financial favors out of men, clothes, brand name goods, etc... this is far from respectable behavior.
The bottom line is if you do suspect she may have been very promiscuous prior to your relationship with her, make sure she gets herself checked and shows you the results. This will not only set your own mind at ease, but will also prove to her that you care enough about her health to encourage healthy sexual practices.
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malando

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2018, 11:55:47 PM »
Respecting people is all well and good, but if they actually are sluts and are promiscuous for the sake of getting some (oftentimes anonymous) sex out of men, then they cant really be called respectable ones. Some have no shame in using their bodies in order to get financial favors out of men, clothes, brand name goods, etc... this is far from respectable behavior.
The bottom line is if you do suspect she may have been very promiscuous prior to your relationship with her, make sure she gets herself checked and shows you the results. This will not only set your own mind at ease, but will also prove to her that you care enough about her health to encourage healthy sexual practices.
You do realise that this thread was created 95% because of your posts, right? Misogyny is embedded into your language - more so than anyone else I've encountered on this forum. You probably think you're a women appreciator, with high standards for what a good woman looks like vs a "slut", but that's exactly what makes you misogynistic. Porn promotes this sort of fervour. To me, you have some unraveling of your deeply held ideas to do, alongside quitting porn. Hopefully quitting porn will assist in that process. Prostitutes and strippers are real people - they don't deserve your scorn and disgust. Promiscuous women might be just like you with porn, they might have a dopamine addiction which expressed as sex addiction. Or they might have emotional needs they can't meet. Or that might just be their life choice. We can't know unless we have talked to them. Just a bit of understanding of their situation would suffice. If judgements were applied to all of us, we'd all be screwed.

HumbleRich

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2018, 12:01:19 AM »
Edit: I talk a lot about polyamory in this post.  In hind sight, I realize that what I really meant to criticize was the sexual revolution movement in general.  I don't care what people do in their own homes and who they do it with.  I don't support or endorse that lifestyle, but people can do what they like.  But don't put it online!!!

----------------------------

I understand the outrage but I have to agree with Finwe and Gracie, combining their statements and saying why not get upset about promiscuous people?  I've read and watched a documentary or two about the complexities of the porn industry, with its inequalities and how producers tend to attract women and men from lower socioeconomic areas.  It is very sad.

But, and this is a bit BUT!!!  Trigger Warning




The internet has truly democratized the porn phenomenon.  I eventually moved away from major porn producers and gravitated toward Reddit for the "girl next door" vibe it provided.

And the thing about this new phenomenon is that you can't really say these people don't know what they are doing when they take nudes or film themselves having sex and post it online.  It is a lot harder to imagine they have some sob story, the way most porn actresses do.

It is a lot harder to see anything but sex obsessed, overly promiscuous, people with no morals.  Notice I said people here (men also post explicit content on Reddit).

I try not to be controversial on the main board here, but I feel that the journals are spaces for us to navigate our personal journeys and should be free for self expression.  I know that on a few of my own I have vented and expressed myself in ways I can't in other spaces.  That self expression is important.  I am very much counter culture in a lot of ways.  I am an atheist and also a socialist, but these days a lot of ideas are called counter culture when they are just bad ideas.  I guess I am just old fashioned when it comes to how you navigate adult life and build a family, with two adults and whatever dependents you want to bring into your life.  I am very much against polyamory and other lifestyles, both philosophically and personally.  And I feel that the journals should be a safe place to express this.

In my daily life (IRL) almost every one I know and associate with is old fashioned, being into monogamy when dating or wanting to settle down eventually, so I really do not believe that polyamory is as big as the media really wants us to think.  I feel it is a really tiny movement, if you can even call it that. 

That said, I think that the main board should be a space where people feel safe to contribute ideas and speak.  But that requires both the freedom of expression and empathy and understanding for others. 

I have to say that if I ever met a swinger or polyamorous person in real life I would run the hell out of the room.  I would be pretty drastically repelled.  My reboot has only made my opinions on sexuality stronger, which makes me feel that this is just a value system that is really important to me.

I am pretty sure I am not alone.

So, while I think we should be wary of threads that exist only to dehumanize women, there should always be room for people to vent and be nostalgic for the good old days when people dated and love meant something.

I'll shut my trap now.

:)

Rich

« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 12:05:55 AM by HumbleRich »

HumbleRich

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2018, 12:31:21 AM »
"Prostitutes and strippers are real people - they don't deserve your scorn and disgust. Promiscuous women might be just like you with porn, they might have a dopamine addiction which expressed as sex addiction. Or they might have emotional needs they can't meet. Or that might just be their life choice."

But Malando, by supporting these decisions and actions, you would just be enabling someone else's bad life choice and activity.  There is a reason promiscuity offends us.  There is a reason why prostitution is not accepted.  It isn't because some evil organization has brainwashed all of us.  Believe me, as someone who as invested some amount of time learning about cults and brainwashing I can tell you that it is not that.  There is something innately offensive with showing off your body or being sexually active with many people.  No amount of rebebellious movements will change that as it isn't a social or political phenomenon, but part of how we are wired. 

I believe there are different levels of ideas.  Reasonable ideas are those that can be argued (socialism vs. capitalism).  Unreasonable ideas are just bad ideas.  To me, supporting the self imposed destruction of an individual's dignity is just a ridiculously bad idea.

Rich

AppleJack

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2018, 01:50:58 AM »
I think malando's point was that they are still humans and deserving of respect and compassion, which doesn't happen with vilification and name calling. If that worked prostitution wouldn't exist.
Would also be nice if slutty men were given the same treatment as slutty women, it takes people hiring prostitutes for them to even do it in the first place, why not call out the slutty men paying for them instead? oh yeah, I forgot  patriarchy, misogyny.  Women evil, men good. Best us western women start wearing burkas and getting stoned for adultery right, that will stop our slutty ways.

PE30

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2018, 01:59:21 AM »
You do realise that this thread was created 95% because of your posts, right?.

Yep, Malando is right. It tends to be your posts, ReformedFapper, that catch my attention. We can argue for ages about the rights and wrongs of prostitution, having multiple sexual partners and so on, but 90% of the time people on here blame the woman. I know that I have nobody to blame for my own addiction but myself.

I'm not quite sure how to phrase this, but there's also a slightly creepy thread running through quite a few posts in here: that once people are clean of porn, they're then better equipped to go out and get laid in real life. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but there's a danger of framing women's bodies as a commodity to be obtained- like a conquest at the end of a videogame. If your reboot leaves you confident and capable of getting out there, dating and having a relationship with someone: great. But be careful how you frame it.

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mousemat1

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2018, 02:35:12 AM »
A great point made by AppleJack

Prostitutes wouldn't exist if there were no men who wanted to use them and yet we see no one condemning men for their promiscuity. Sadly, there are women in the world who suffer great hardships and poverty to whom selling sex seems the easiest solution. I would be very surprised if many of them actually enjoyed having some stranger leering over them, panting and groaning. There may well be a percentage of women who actually enjoy this kind work, but don't overlook the fact that prostitution exists because men demand prostitutes.

As for calling them sluts, etc. It has to be remembered that sex workers are human beings like the rest of us. In most mainstream porn men want to see women behaving like 'sluts' because if you remove the illusion that they are having the time of their lives, being double penetrated and ejaculated upon, then porn just looks like rape. The image of the slut is promoted to pander to men's desires. 'She looks like she loves it so I'm not doing anything wrong, and I'm giving her some money as well'.

I knew someone who had several trips to Thailand in order to make use of their prostitutes. When I asked him why he did it, he told me it was because the girls were poor and needed the money. So I asked him why he didn't just send money to Thailand to help the poor. Either he had convinced himself that having sex with these young girls was a charitable act or it was all a smokescreen to cover his embarrassment that he used sex workers.

The thing that makes me furious in this debate is that it always seems to be the women's fault. You have a married couple, for example. The wife has gone off sex for whatever reason. Her husband calls her a frigid bitch, so goes out to pay some slut for sex. Nowhere in this scenario is there a responsibility on the man to empathise or rein in his lust.

Don't forget that each and everyone of us on this forum has at some point sat in front of a computer screen with our cocks in our hands, relishing the slutty antics of porn stars and often wishing she were even more base. Of course now that we have caused our own PIED, we would like to blame someone else for our predicament, but no one forced me to watch porn.

Reformed Fapper

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2018, 02:35:28 AM »
Quote
I know that I have nobody to blame for my own addiction but myself.
Yes me too. Don't think I ever blamed anyone else for my own addiction on this forum?

Quote
Once people are clean of porn, they're then better equipped to go out and get laid in real life
Well yes. That seems to be the problem of a lot of users.
Let's not sugar coat it or get caught up in any false sense of political correctness. People on here often experience ED as the initial symptom of being addicted to PMO. So they want to cure that in order to be able to have sex. Excellent, a nobel aspiration. Be it with their longtime partner or someone they've just picked up for the night - That's none of our business.

Un-fuck your life, quit porn now! Today!

mousemat1

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2018, 02:40:15 AM »
Reformed Fapper

What is political correctness?

malando

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2018, 10:31:10 AM »
"Prostitutes and strippers are real people - they don't deserve your scorn and disgust. Promiscuous women might be just like you with porn, they might have a dopamine addiction which expressed as sex addiction. Or they might have emotional needs they can't meet. Or that might just be their life choice."

But Malando, by supporting these decisions and actions, you would just be enabling someone else's bad life choice and activity. 
Did I say anywhere that I am supporting their decisions? Or did I simply say that we shouldn't be out there seeking to denigrate and vilify other people who are in situations we can't possibly understand? There's a difference you know. It's not my place to make some people of lesser value - whether I approve of their choices or not. And for a porn addict, any engagement with misogynist language is a mistake. It's ugly and denigrating the same way porn is. I think we can be enlightened enough these days to understand the perils of the hyper sexualised culture we live in, but not to despise every person in it. Anybody involved in any level of this gigantic system is a victim to it to some degree. We wouldn't want to be summarised as pathetic, disgusting, filthy wankers for having a porn addiction that we are fighting, yet some might very well do just that. For the same reason, we shouldn't be writing women off as "sluts" for their involvement in the same culture. Everybody has their story - most people have some regrets. Nobody is just one thing - least of all a degrading insult.

PE30

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2018, 11:03:49 AM »
Be it with their longtime partner or someone they've just picked up for the night - That's none of our business.

Don't you see the inherent contradiction in your thinking? That it is okay for a man to go and have sex with whomever they want... But it's not okay for a woman to do so, because that makes her a slut. Just a thought.
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Finwë

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2018, 12:32:05 PM »
A great point made by AppleJack

Prostitutes wouldn't exist if there were no men who wanted to use them and yet we see no one condemning men for their promiscuity.

I don't know about you but I think that men who use prostitutes are trash and so does everyone else I know.
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aquarius25

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2018, 01:27:47 PM »
A great point made by AppleJack

Prostitutes wouldn't exist if there were no men who wanted to use them and yet we see no one condemning men for their promiscuity.

I don't know about you but I think that men who use prostitutes are trash and so does everyone else I know.

I think referring to anyone as trash isn't kind. One could argue that the line between meeting the prostitute in person or just viewing them on a screen is pretty thin, where does the trash label end? How about we just view people as people and encourage them to be the best version of themselves? I feel like the objectification and judgmental language sounds like the same language that my husband would use when he was at the peak of his porn viewing days. Just an interesting observation. Maybe, a part of healing and something that could help the reboot process would be to try shifting your perspective of people. Maybe viewing them as more than trash might help alleviate the urge to view them naked on a screen? I could be way off base but it sure wouldn't hurt to try and see. If I am wrong than by all means disregard this.

Jennifer27

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #21 on: Today at 09:07:30 AM »
There's been quite a lot of misogynistic language on here recently. People describing porn actresses as filthy sluts and so on. Or saying that women on Tinder all have STDs.

The porn industry describes them as filthy sluts, and they go along with it for the $. Rationally, being a slut (male or female) doesn't make you any less of a human being, but biology clearly isn't rational. Promiscuous people do have far higher rates of stds, condoms/dental dams only protect you from a few stds and few people wear them for oral sex and kissing. Men can impregnate many women and have a lower rate of std contraction, women derive little benefit from being the town bicycle, and are more likely to contract stds. It is also far easier for the majority of women to have sex with attractive men, whereas men often have to prove their worth as a potential provider to gain sexual access. All of this could lead one to conclude that disgust toward promiscuous women is hard wired into our biology, not fair, but that's life.

Quote
These are people's daughters, sisters, loved ones. Nurturing a hatred of women as part of your reboot is the dictionary definition of two wrongs not making a right. Respect is fundamental to any reboot.

Indeed, everyone on this planet is someone's relative, that doesn't mean promiscuity should be respected, nor are promiscuous people automatically deserving of respect. Not respecting someone is a far cry from hating them.
« Last Edit: Today at 09:21:26 AM by Jennifer27 »

Jennifer27

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #22 on: Today at 09:20:38 AM »
A great point made by AppleJack

Prostitutes wouldn't exist if there were no men who wanted to use them and yet we see no one condemning men for their promiscuity.

I don't know about you but I think that men who use prostitutes are trash and so does everyone else I know.

Exactly, there is plenty of shaming and dehumanization going around for men who indulge in the services of prostitutes. What we are getting into is the difference between a slut, and a whore (gender neutral). A slut does not charge for sexual access, whereas a whore does. The term "whore" is typically reserved for women who charge $ for sexual access, but we can logically extend it to men as well. Since women do not value sexual access to the same degree as men, we must identify what is more desirable to women that men primarily have to offer, and that is $. The most common form of male whore is not a man who charges $ for sexual access, it is a man who charges sexual favors for access to his dollars. It is entirely natural to look down on both male and female whores, particularly those who didn't lift a finger to earn the assets they are selling.

So what is the male archetype to a female slut? Well that would be a charitable man, freely distributing his wealth to anyone who needs/wants it, but we don't look down on charitable men do we? There is great unfairness in human nature and biology. Rationally there should be nothing wrong with a woman who chooses to enjoy her sexual freedom (so long as she isn't charging for it), but human nature and biology are always getting in the way of what is rational and fair. It is undeniable that humans naturally value female chastity above male chastity, regardless of "social conditioning". Nature isn't fair, sorry ladies :(
« Last Edit: Today at 09:27:26 AM by Jennifer27 »

Jennifer27

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #23 on: Today at 09:41:06 AM »
We wouldn't want to be summarised as pathetic, disgusting, filthy wankers for having a porn addiction that we are fighting, yet some might very well do just that. For the same reason, we shouldn't be writing women off as "sluts" for their involvement in the same culture. Everybody has their story - most people have some regrets. Nobody is just one thing - least of all a degrading insult.

Right, so as long we are actively fighting our porn addiction, we aren't filthy wankers anymore, and as long as women are actively fighting their promiscuity, they aren't sluts and whores anymore...hmm... :-\

mousemat1

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Re: Misogynistic language on here
« Reply #24 on: Today at 09:56:31 AM »
So what is the male archetype to a female slut? Well that would be a charitable man, freely distributing his wealth to anyone who needs/wants it, but we don't look down on charitable men do we?

I don't follow your reasoning here. If I man is "freely distributing his wealth to anyone who needs/wants it" then there is no transaction. How can you say this person is a slut or a whore? He's giving money for nothing in return.

However, this thread was opened to challenge misogynistic language. The kind of language which refers to all women who are employed in the sex industry, be they porn stars or prostitutes, as whores or sluts. Using this kind of language dehumanises these women, many of who are coerced into this kind of work due to financial pressures (some could probably find other means of sustaining themselves, but the lure of big bucks for an afternoons work seems too good to be true). There are some women who compulsively enjoy sex with disregard for their health. It could be argued that these women have unresolved psychological issues. I find it difficult to use sweeping statements about people without knowing the underlying causes. For example, I don't like to see the obese being referred to as 'lazy bastards' because in many of the cases I have been aware of there has been some underlying psychological issue which has resulted in their illness.

If we want to use this kind of generalisation then lets lay our cards on the table and refer to the addicts on the forum for what they really are .... filthy perverts, sitting in front of computer screens, pants round ankles, cocks in hand, wanking into a old sock.

However, from many of my discussions with the addicts struggling with porn on this forum it is pretty clear that they are neither filthy nor perverts (myself included). We made some wrong decisions earlier in life and we are now paying the price with fighting this illness. That's not to say that there aren't people so mentally ill that they do perform perverted acts. So, while I won't allow myself to be labeled a filthy pervert because of my porn use, I think it's reasonable to challenge the generalisation that all women who perform sex acts for money are sluts.