Author Topic: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.  (Read 192401 times)

Gracie

  • Global Moderator
  • Member

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 996
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #400 on: May 22, 2016, 07:29:08 AM »
I would like to put something in here.  In reading what you wrote, it occurred to me that the whole ritual of being with someone has changed as a result of porn and the media and then the people.  It used to be that for both men and women there was the excitement of asking someone out for a date.  You went somewhere maybe with others maybe not.  Then you talked.  You communicated.  You found out if you had like interests.  Then if things went well, you went out again.  After a bit you were a couple.  The guy and the girl were excited to see each other.  I still remember that I could tell the sound of my boyfriend's car coming down the street.  Even when I was in my twenties.  Excitement that I was going to see him.  Then that moment he got out of the car his excitement to see me.  Talk about dopamine!   

Now, I do not see that so much.  Sex has become the handshake of hello.  No build up. No getting to know each other.  Just an orgasm.  Women through movies are shown that they should be available always.  Men are shown that they should have women and have sex, lots of sex.  or should I say lots of orgasms.  And in the media, a man can look like Forrest Whitaker and have a lead in a movie, but women have to look like Katy Perry (yes I know she's a singer)  but you get the idea.  So now there is no build up of emotion, there is only expectation.

And when there is only expectation, when the expected thing isn't there, we figure out a way to get it.  Expectation and anticipation are not the same thing.  It has been 4 years since discovery of my husband using, and he has not used since.  But I still try to figure out, what, other than exposure, causes this to be the choice.  Others are exposed and do not go down the rabbit hole.  So what things can be used to give dopamine hits that make you feel good?  And healthy things?  I am not talking exercise although that helps replace the behavior.  So many say they feel alone, no self esteem, emotions out of whack.  Wives here talk about the loss of emotion on the part of their partner.  And I am sure that those that are not with someone have noticed the emotion disconnect that has occurred in their lives.  Learn to reach out to others, talk to them.  And build in some anticipation, the waiting, the build up for what ever.  Saving for an item that you desire.  Don't use your credit card.  Save.  Put money back each week.  Watch the money grow.  Maybe I am wrong but anticipation may help.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 04:50:19 AM by Gracie »

Chip

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #401 on: May 22, 2016, 06:27:17 PM »
I would like to put something in here.  In reading what you wrote, it occurred to me that the whole ritual of being with someone has changed as a result of porn and the media and then the people.  It used to be that for both men and women there was the excitement of asking someone out for a date.  You went somewhere maybe with others maybe not.  Then you talked.  You communicated.  You found out if you had like interests.  Then if things went well, you went out again.  After a bit you were a couple.  The guy and the girl were excited to see each other.  I still remember that I could tell the sound of my boyfriend's care coming down the street.  Even when I was in my twenties.  Excitement that I was going to see him.  Then that moment he got out of the car his excitement to see me.  Talk about dopamine!   

Now, I do not see that so much.  Sex has become the handshake of hello.  No build up. No getting to know each other.  Just an orgasm.  Women through movies are shown that they should be available always.  Men are shown that they should have women and have sex, lots of sex.  or should I say lots of orgasms.  And in the media, a man can look like Forrest Whitaker and have a lead in a movie, but women have to look like Katy Perry (yes I know she's a singer)  but you get the idea.  So now there is no build up of emotion, there is only expectation.

And when there is only expectation, when the expected thing isn't there, we figure out a way to get it.  Expectation and anticipation are not the same thing.  It has been 4 years since discovery of my husband using, and he has not used since.  But I still try to figure out, other than exposure, causes this to be the choice.  Others are exposed and do not go down the rabbit hole.  So what things can be used to give dopamine hits that make you feel good?  And healthy things?  I am not talking exercise although that helps replace the behavior.  So many say they feel alone, no self esteem, emotions out of whack.  Wives here talk about the loss of emotion on the part of their partner.  And I am sure that those that are not with someone have noticed the emotion disconnect that has occurred in their lives.  Learn to reach out to others, talk to them.  And build in some anticipation, the waiting, the build up for what ever.  Saving for an item that you desire.  Don't use your credit card.  Save.  Put money back each week.  Watch the money grow.  Maybe I am wrong but anticipation may help.
You made some very good points.  I agree pretty much across the board.  As to why some get sucked in and some don't is debatable.  I would argue that most all get sucked in to a degree, is just that most refuse to see it as a destructive habit, but instead accept it as normal male behavior.  I also would argue that for the ones who struggle with it the most, didn't get there because they were unsatisfied with their spouse.  This really isn't about sex for most, its about medicating oneself in an effort to feel better, for a myriad of reasons.  What porn offers is excitement and escape, but what it gives the end user is disappointment, disconnectedness and depression.  So you find yourself looking for that next image that's gonna give you that pop, that rush of excitement and the escape from whatever pain is troubling you.  For me, I usually indulged myself whenever I was bored or especially if I'd been stressed, like getting laid off from work again. 

I know women tend to think its because we've lost attraction for them that this starts, but that's not usually the case with the men I've talked to or myself.  Now I'm only referencing those addicted to JUST porn, now if somebody is out running around with other ladies then that's a whole different kettle of fish.  I'm no scientist, just a veteran of the porn wars going back 35+ years and I can say without hesitation that it usually doesn't "start" because of changes in our spouses looks.  Now over time, prolonged PMOing will begin to warp how you view your spouse because it becomes harder to be aroused by them, but its not them who changed, its your brain needing more and more dopamine.  I can go on, but the bottom line is usually it has nothing to do with changes in a wives bodies or looks, y'all are fine.

Gracie

  • Global Moderator
  • Member

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 996
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #402 on: May 25, 2016, 05:07:14 AM »
Thanks Chip for responding to my post.  The Forrest Whitaker/Katy Perry was for the point that when I talk to young people, who are impacted by culture is to show that we are all brainwashed.  The males ask why do girls dress the way they do.  Then we talk about movies and tv.  How people look and how they are portrayed.  When they are out, what girls do they look at?  There are old guys with young women in intimate relationships.  And then we try to come up with media portrayals of old women with young men.  And they all go, ewwww.  The purpose is there's the hook.  And unless something happens, that is what they see over and over again.  Then as my husband says, they drink the Kool-Aid.  Wonderful dopamine filled Kool-Aid. 

And that keeps getting reinforced.  Look at the number of web pages that you go to in order to watch crazy cats or dogs and look at the suggested things at the side of the page.  So and so and her teeny bikini.  Wardrobe malfunctions.  etc.  What kid won't click?  So the above message is reinforced.  And then leads them to believe this is okay.  This is what we should look at.  Even on news pages.  How is someone exposing whatever, news?  It is easy to get addicted.   It is hard to avoid what got them there in the first place.  So it is reinforced over and over.   

I think it would be very hard to be an PA and be able to not look at images.  I am not one, so am not triggered but I see this over and over.  So we have porn induced ed.  But the images horse is out of the barn and can't be put back.  It takes a lot of willpower to not drink the Kool-Aid.   My husband says over and over, "I drank the Kool-Aid but no more. 

TK-421

  • Member

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 295
  • Personal Text
    "Porn is not an option"
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #403 on: May 25, 2016, 02:21:34 PM »
Hi TK, thanks for the kind words.

I realized I was addicted to porn about 14 months before I ever heard the words "porn addiction."  Porn addiction, at that time, four and a half years ago, was not, really, recognized or accepted.  Sex addiction, yes, a bit more, but porn addiction, not really.  It is still debated.  Then, one day, I came across the Wilson vid.  At that point I had a name for the problem.  I had never heard of "dopamine", or porn induced dopamine addiction.  Once I found the Wilson vid, it took me about 120 before I felt confidence I had broken the addiction, and was never going back.  I never have.  I started posting on Nofap, almost 3 years ago.  We, and the science of it, have come a long way since then.  If you look at the very early posts, I have the right idea, but am still struggling a bit, trying to figure it out.  I am not just talking about the big thread, with the big hits, but all the other posts off of it.  In fact, the big thread was started considerably later, Get Educated, Get Tools, Learn to Love Withdrawals.  It is popular because I quit complaining about being addicted, and started offering ideas on how to get clean. That concept, "getting clean", quitting, one hundred percent, was not something a lot of people were talking about back then.  Reddit Nofap started as a challenge, and a bit of a joke, and "porn addiction" was not really a part of that discussion.  It was more like a bunch of college kids saying, hey, let's see just how long we can go without MOing, but the concept of giving it up, forever, was alien.  But the brain science was totally missing.  As for ups and downs, I had plenty in that first 14 months, but, once I realized I was just using porn to get a dopamine high, though the ups and downs happened, I never went back.  I never will.  I wish I was an enlightened anything.  Becoming addicted to porn induced dopamine rushes was a result, largely, of being unaware that such a thing was even possible.  I am aware now.  Watch the Wilson vid.  Become aware of what porn does.  Do not judge it, but become aware of it.  No one likes watching porn.  We like riding a dopamine high.  If painting fenceposts gave us a dopamine high, we would all be in the fencepost painting business.  Dopamine rushes are an evolved, neurological, response to sexual thoughts, the purpose of which is, ultimately, to encourage reproduction via sex.  High Speed Internet Porn, though, allows us to use HSIP, aka artificial sexual stimulation, to push that dopamine button a lot more that the real deal can.  Take time to understand the mechanics of it, and a huge problem becomes something much smaller.  Know what you are doing, when you are doing it, and that makes breaking the cycle much easier. 

Peace.

Thanks for your words William.   Again, I am so appreciative of the time and effort you have taken to share your experiences and your message. It's simple, but profound. It's the "enlightenment" that I have been seeking for a long time. I've started a journal on this forum - I'd love to get your thoughts and feedback.
I never use porn or masturbate Now.  I am in charge of my life.

Gracie

  • Global Moderator
  • Member

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 996
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #404 on: May 30, 2016, 08:21:11 AM »
Building a little on what Chip said.  I think the disconnect from wives, the secrecy and non-communication is what makes us feel it is us and we are not good enough.  Remember sex is an emotional connect for us.  If the emotion is gone, then there is something wrong.  Then we find out they are watching and touching themselves and let's face it most of the women is porn are somebody's definition of perfect, then the result of no communication, secrecy, disconnect, not much physicality from our husbands lead us to it is us.  Porn warps your definition of women and yourself how can it not warp your definition of beauty?  Attractiveness of others?  Sexual preferences as in positions what you expect us to do.

On the one hand, we hear it is not us.  On the other we are told it warps a PA's brain.  Remember then, we are dealing with and responding to a warped brain and pretty much someone we do not know.  We have never been through this before.  Remember we have no one to talk to.  The overwhelming viewpoint on men using porn is that they use because their wife is not good enough in bed, attractive enough, or a cold fish.  We already feel pretty bad about ourselves so do we want to see what happens when we reveal our pain to others?  OH HELL NO.  So we can pretty much only share our feeling with this man we do not know.  And he does not want to share because he has conditioned himself to secrecy. 

I have been here since the beginning of this forum.  I was the first or second female on here.  And I have tried and tried to get men to see it is not about the physical result of using porn.  It is about the emotional disconnect.  Especially if you have a long term partner.  I desperately do not any woman to have to experience this pain.   Let us express our hurt and anger.  With you is the only time we can.  And we do need to talk this through.  We have noticed little signs along the way and ignored them.  Because we love you.  Now we feel stupid.  And we cry and yell because we care.  Because we want you in spite of the pain.  Because we still love you.  And we know if we keep inside an don't talk to you, it will slowly erode our love for you, the love of our life!

Chip

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #405 on: May 30, 2016, 02:53:17 PM »
Building a little on what Chip said.  I think the disconnect from wives, the secrecy and non-communication is what makes us feel it is us and we are not good enough.  Remember sex is an emotional connect for us.  If the emotion is gone, then there is something wrong.  Then we find out they are watching and touching themselves and let's face it most of the women is porn are somebody's definition of perfect, then the result of no communication, secrecy, disconnect, not much physicality from our husbands lead us to it is us.  Porn warps your definition of women and yourself how can it not warp your definition of beauty?  Attractiveness of others?  Sexual preferences as in positions what you expect us to do.

On the one hand, we hear it is not us.  On the other we are told it warps a PA's brain.  Remember then, we are dealing with and responding to a warped brain and pretty much someone we do not know.  We have never been through this before.  Remember we have no one to talk to.  The overwhelming viewpoint on men using porn is that they use because their wife is not good enough in bed, attractive enough, or a cold fish.  We already feel pretty bad about ourselves so do we want to see what happens when we reveal our pain to others?  OH HELL NO.  So we can pretty much only share our feeling with this man we do not know.  And he does not want to share because he has conditioned himself to secrecy. 

I have been here since the beginning of this forum.  I was the first or second female on here.  And I have tried and tried to get men to see it is not about the physical result of using porn.  It is about the emotional disconnect.  Especially if you have a long term partner.  I desperately do not any woman to have to experience this pain.   Let us express our hurt and anger.  With you is the only time we can.  And we do need to talk this through.  We have noticed little signs along the way and ignored them.  Because we love you.  Now we feel stupid.  And we cry and yell because we care.  Because we want you in spite of the pain.  Because we still love you.  And we know if we keep inside an don't talk to you, it will slowly erode our love for you, the love of our life!
Truer words have never been spoken.

Chip

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #406 on: June 03, 2016, 09:09:00 AM »
I always return to this thread, it was a turning point for me when I read it the first time.  I have since recommended it to every new RN member I come across.  For anyone seeking a formula for success in the battle with Porn, this is it.  What follows are William's instructions, but each and every step is a must.

"William's Plan"
My bona fides:  over one year no relapses, no porn, no PMO, no MO.  Gabe asked me to post here.  I previously posted on NoFap, which I loved, and where my post had over 19,000 reads, when I left it, having achieved one year clean. 

Hello Gentlemen.  First, let's figure out if this post is for you.  If it is for you, stay, read, and contribute, it may bring you peace.  If it is not for you, leave, it will bring you no peace. 

This post is for porn addicts for whom use of porn has become seemingly impossible to quit, highly compulsive, and whose pornography use has caused significant problems in their lives.  "Significant problems" means erectile dysfunction, delayed ejaculation, premature ejaculation, or, the worst, problems with the women they care for.  By the way, this is not just for men, women suffer from this as well, but I usually speak to guys being a guy myself. 

But, it is not just for the guys in the paragraph above.  The paragraph above may describe you.  But there is something else that includes you in the group of guys I am speaking to here, and that is you have finally made the decision to quit porn, completely, forever, to give it up, to leave it behind, to abandon it, to excommunicate it, to defriend it, to have nothing more to do with it, to live a porn free life, and to never go back to the slavery that porn addiction represents.  If you want to stay a slave, go away.

You see, Gentlemen, there are two types of guys here.  I only have something to say for one type.  The first type is the guy who understands porn is a problem for him, but who wants to control it, to cut back, but, to keep it in his life.  That type is an alcoholic who likes to keep a bottle in the house, even if it is not opened, and is on the top shelf pushed way back.  He is an alcoholic in denial, and sooner or later, he is going on a binge.  The first type suffers from hubris and arrogance, and ignorance. The second type is the guy who has accepted porn controls him, that he cannot control porn, but that porn has come to control him.  The second type will overcome his porn addiction through humility, knowledge, and suffering--the suffering is only for a relatively short time.  Knowing he cannot keep porn in his life and control it, he has committed to deleting it from his life, and thus controlling his life again.  I am in the second group.  Porn no longer controls my life because I know that with porn in my life, porn controlled me.  I now control my life.  For those of you who are or wish to be in the second group, I invite you to this side of the line.  For the rest, you have much love from me, and I wish you all the happiness you can have relapsing, every two or three days, for the next 60 or 70 years. 

There are three things that men quitting porn must do; Get Educated, Get Tools, Learn to Love Withdrawals.   You must educate yourself as to the problem.  If you are in the midst  of porn addiction you think the problem is huge.  It is a hurricane, you are in the middle of it, and you cannot see the end to it or how you will survive it.  In fact, the problem is very small.  The problem deceives you, that is part of the problem.  You see porn addiction happens in the brain, it is totally above the belt.  Porn addiction is very simple:  You are having a chemical reaction to visual stimulation.  The solution:  eliminate the visual stimulation.  Sounds simple, and on some level it is, but...I'll come back to the "but" in a moment. 

This is the perfect place to get educated.  Gabe Deem is a great teacher.  His is nearly three years clean.  The first thing I advise you to do is read and view everything he has said on the problem.

Not less helpful is Gary Wilson.  He has taught us the science behind our addiction. 

The link to the video that saved my life is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU

Copy and paste it. Watch it.  Take notes, watch it again. 

Understand that this is just cause and effect, stimuli and response.  The problem looks huge to you now, but, in fact, it is actually quite small.  Again, I will come back to the "but" in a moment.

Hit this link.  It is Gabe.  He is human, you are human, if he can do it, you can do it.  You can do it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JRehA9C0ajQ

Understand you don't just begin your journey to getting clean cold, you prepare for it, you anticipate it. 

http://www.nofap.org/forum/showthread.php?3549-Action!-or-not!!!-Have-you-actually-Prepared-for-it

The thing is, it took you years to get here.  If you are not willing to put a couple hours into preparing to get clean, then you love the high porn gives you more than getting clean, and that means you are not yet ready to get clean.  To get clean you have to reach a place in  your life where "getting clean" is the most important thing to you.  If it is five down on your wish list, you are not ready. 

Above is the education. Getting educated about the addiction was the biggest step for me in quitting it. I thought I had a problem below the belt, when in fact it was always in my brain, above the belt. We talk about being PMO addicts or even porn addicts, but in reality we are dopamine addicts, it's the greatest drug in the universe, and we carry it around in our brains. There are other chemicals involved too, but dopamine is the main culprit.  Dopamine, is released in response to porn, and our brains come to love it. Your PMO cycle will never be broken so long as you've got porn on the brain, or literally running around inside it. A lot of guys slow down when starting to try to quit, but they will never be quit if they keep porn in their head.

Tools: Porn blockers.
Don't just quit, don't just passively stop and sit there, take affirmative action to change your online habits by making it difficult to access the problem. This will help you in various ways. Stopping your ability to access porn will help you stop accessing porn, and accessing porn is the underlying problem here. Maybe blockers won't stop you, but for me, they slowed me down and acted almost like a reminder that I was stopping. Like a tap on the shoulder. Also, taking these steps means you are taking steps to control your situation, which is a bit empowering. I also post here, it helps.  Most guys swear by K9.  I have used it, and I recommend it.  You can stop reading here, go to K9, install it, come back and finish.  Don't give yourself time or a reason not to. 

Here comes the "but".  Last, withdrawals.  Withdrawals suck. We don't talk enough about them here. They are why we fail. They are our brain's dopamine drenched chemical reward center begging us, threatening us, punishing us, pleading with us, rationalizing with us why we need to PMO. Withdrawals are painful, they are physical, mental, and emotional pain. They are the jitters, the shakes, the sweats, odd pains in odd places, the brain fog we feel when quitting, and our brain's way of telling us all that unpleasantness can go away with just a little harmless fix. When going through withdrawal I felt I had a sinus infection and my teeth actually hurt. I did not have a sinus infection and my teeth were fine, but my brain, at some level, had to make me feel bad to try and make me feel good through a porn induced dopamine release. The good thing is, if you are having withdrawals, it means your brain's dopamine levels are on their way back to normal. Once you get back to normal those things stop, but you can't get back to normal until your brain re-balances, and that takes...let's just round up to 90 days. You will probably see significant lessening at about 35-40 days, but even after that, you will experience them.  Newbies must be told this will not be easy, it will be hard, and they have to expect this pain, endure it, embrace it and even want it to accomplish our task, getting dopamine production back to normal.  If you are addicted you WILL feel this pain.  You must accept that, and you must embrace it, and you must prepare for it, and on a certain level you have to WANT it.  It will not kill you, you will not die, but on a certain level you will feel like it.  You know that euphoria that porn abuse gave you at its height?  Think of withdrawals as that, but negative times two.   No one gets out easy, so, if you are not willing to get out hard, you are not willing to get out. 

Also, porn is a chameleon.  You have favorites, you have categories, a lot of us go to places that are far, far, away from what we would consider our natural, healthy sexual taste or orientation.  You have to understand that "porn" is just a button we push to get a dopamine high.  Once those early porn pathways are desensitized, we look for new, novel, different pathways, leading us father and father away from who we were in the beginning.  When quitting porn, though, we will trigger on almost anything.  Porn addiction can be starved to death, but when quitting, the addiction is willing to be fed by almost anything.  No matter how hardcore your porn addiction became at the end, when quitting a Victoria Secret's layout will trigger you.  You have to avoid the chameleon, it is just your dopamine soaked  brain trying to talk to you, whisper in your year, that you must relapse.  In fact, you must NOT relapse.  Porn is not just porn for the addict quitting porn, it is any sexual imagery that sets off dopamine release. Porn is seeing it, watching it, perceiving it, hearing it, thinking of it, imagining it, remembering it. It is having an orgasm while thinking of it, whether with a partner or during MO. It is edging. It is PMOing. It is using porn substitutes like chat rooms or soft core imagery that triggers a dopamine release.

Now we begin. 

Thanks for allowing me to post. Posting and responding to posts are part of my recovery, so thank you.

I wish everyone who read this past the second paragraph luck on their journey.

Much love.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 09:13:10 AM by Chip »

TiramiSu

  • Member

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 555
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #407 on: June 03, 2016, 03:49:55 PM »
Hello William.

you said something very wise. It takes pain, it takes an effort and we need to be prepared that it is not for free and that rough times will come.  This attitude should be generally taken as a piece of advice for life: Life requires pain.  as a pmoer, I always wanted to avoid pain just run to the next fix.....but thank you for reinforcing. Getting rid of this will be tough work.

Chip

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #408 on: June 04, 2016, 08:26:47 AM »
Hello William.

you said something very wise. It takes pain, it takes an effort and we need to be prepared that it is not for free and that rough times will come.  This attitude should be generally taken as a piece of advice for life: Life requires pain.  as a pmoer, I always wanted to avoid pain just run to the next fix.....but thank you for reinforcing. Getting rid of this will be tough work.
very true.

TK-421

  • Member

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 295
  • Personal Text
    "Porn is not an option"
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #409 on: June 04, 2016, 11:51:07 PM »
^^^ I agree Chip, I love this thread and come back to it regularly. I credit William and the wisdom in this thread for a big part of my current success.
I never use porn or masturbate Now.  I am in charge of my life.

Jon64

  • Member

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 112
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #410 on: June 05, 2016, 01:34:18 PM »
 Today is day 120 for me. Four months free from  PMO.  Listen to what William says and follow the advice in this topic from him. It'll be a huge win for you. Good luck everybody
url=http://pmo-tracker.appspot.com/?u=6319633753702400][/url]

Iamfreeindeed

  • Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 25
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #411 on: June 05, 2016, 02:04:44 PM »
Thank you William! I appreciate your blunt tone that expresses the seriousness of the situation. Especially cos this is a battle of the mind. 


Chip

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #412 on: June 06, 2016, 08:07:11 AM »
Today is day 120 for me. Four months free from  PMO.  Listen to what William says and follow the advice in this topic from him. It'll be a huge win for you. Good luck everybody
120, Man that is awesome!  Congrats Jon64, you are an inspiration.

akpal2

  • Member

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 336
  • Personal Text
    I will beat this monster, I will get my life back
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #413 on: June 06, 2016, 03:15:14 PM »
thank you William, I believe that your posts have really helped me come a long way and making my sexual life and healthy and normal. I am still fighting but I am definitely healing. Many thanks and gratitude from the depths of my heart. Here is a link to my thread to give you an idea of where I started from and where I currently stand (you can read the first post) and the last few posts to see the progress. Once again, many thanks

http://www.rebootnation.org/forum/index.php?topic=7077.175



Chip

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #414 on: June 09, 2016, 11:23:51 AM »
thank you William, I believe that your posts have really helped me come a long way and making my sexual life and healthy and normal. I am still fighting but I am definitely healing. Many thanks and gratitude from the depths of my heart. Here is a link to my thread to give you an idea of where I started from and where I currently stand (you can read the first post) and the last few posts to see the progress. Once again, many thanks

http://www.rebootnation.org/forum/index.php?topic=7077.175
Great work Akpal2.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 09:19:56 AM by Chip »

TK-421

  • Member

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 295
  • Personal Text
    "Porn is not an option"
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #415 on: June 09, 2016, 02:11:56 PM »
Hi William,

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the relationship between porn addiction and sex addiction. My experience has been that they are intertwined, related and feed off of each other. Did you experience this at all or was your struggle only with Internet porn?

I know a big part of what you promote is to focus on what is real and give up all artificial stimulation. This has been enormously helpful for me. In the past I have struggled with other sex addictions such as affairs, voyerism, exhibitionism, sharing pics of my wife with other guys, etc.  How would you distinguish between healthy and unhealthy sexual behaviours? For example, if a husband and wife wanted to be swingers and were both onboard, would you see that as being ok? Or is it just an extension of unhealthy sexual behaviours?  Is someone who engages in affairs just feeding a dopamine addiction (real, but still new and novel)?

Would love to hear your views and know more about your personal experiences. As I've said before, your postings have been life changing for me.
I never use porn or masturbate Now.  I am in charge of my life.

Proffesor_NOMOREX

  • Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 16
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #416 on: June 10, 2016, 12:30:17 AM »
Very excellent post! I just said no to a craving and I feel very good about myself doing so! I am looking forward to the withdrawls and the flatline, while in the past they have made me feel hopeless that I would ever be free, this time around I know that if my dick isn't working, and if i'm enduring withdrawls then my mind is on its way back to normal.

And you touched upon that in your post. I have tried countless amount of times in the past to defeat this addiction, but this time I am buckled in and I crave the process instead of fearing it! This post has given me hope that this is the time! This is finally that time I will defeat it, keep going, and never look back!

William

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #417 on: June 11, 2016, 02:06:55 PM »
Hi William,

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the relationship between porn addiction and sex addiction. My experience has been that they are intertwined, related and feed off of each other. Did you experience this at all or was your struggle only with Internet porn?

I know a big part of what you promote is to focus on what is real and give up all artificial stimulation. This has been enormously helpful for me. In the past I have struggled with other sex addictions such as affairs, voyerism, exhibitionism, sharing pics of my wife with other guys, etc.  How would you distinguish between healthy and unhealthy sexual behaviours? For example, if a husband and wife wanted to be swingers and were both onboard, would you see that as being ok? Or is it just an extension of unhealthy sexual behaviours?  Is someone who engages in affairs just feeding a dopamine addiction (real, but still new and novel)?

Would love to hear your views and know more about your personal experiences. As I've said before, your postings have been life changing for me.


First of all, thanks to everyone who has posted here.  Writing and reading is a big part of what I do to stay clean, so, thanks for helping me. 

@TK.  I have started and stopped posting an answer to your questions about four times.  Your questions are not really about porn addiction, which I write about quite often, but is about a bigger question, the question of human sexuality.  That topic is huge compared to the relatively small topic of porn induced dopamine addiction. 

I think the question is, how has recognizing I had become addicted to porn, then going through recovery, altered my perception of human sexuality.  I would say, profoundly. 

Back, before I knew I was addicted, before I knew porn induced dopamine addiction was possible, back before I had put the words "porn addiction" together, as a concept, in my mind, I conceived of human sexuality the way most people in the world do today:  Sexuality was an amusement park ride, something to ride for the thrill of it, totally healthy, no serious, or adverse, consequences.  Just a fun distraction. 

And, like most people in the world, I was ignorant, and an idiot. 

As a result of my "porn addiction" experience, I don't view sex that way anymore.  I don't view it as only a toy to be played with.  I used to.  Now, while I enjoy my sexuality, I am much more aware of what a profound motivator sexuality is for both myself, the individual, and the species.  Sexuality, for humans, is probably the single most powerful, innate and naturally occurring,  motivator we experience.  When it comes to studying and understanding human sexuality, and its inherent, central, and singular place in the life of a person, we....don't.  Maybe in 1,000 years, when the superstition, voodoo, myth, mystique, romance, and religious misconceptions are stripped away, we might be able to study and understand it for what it is, and what it not.

Porn addiction, and the recovery, has made me much more of a realist, when it comes to sexuality, and much, much more conservative.  I think the concept of human sexuality should be introduced pre-school to every person on the planet, and it should be studied, like science, a little bit, every year, that a person is alive.  There is a reason why, especially in western culture, we swim in sexuality, are immersed in it.  Even if it is not, literally, "porn", it is difficult to escape being confronted with sexuality if one interacts with the media, in any form, at all.  It is on television, it is on radio, it is on the internet, on billboards, on packaging.  It is subtle and nuanced.  It is in the fact that we have cheerleaders that scamper around wearing barely bikinis.  I don't want to start a flame, I like cheerleaders, but, seriously, the fact that our society feels it is acceptable to sexualize women on the sidelines of games just illustrates how we are willing, and want, almost every aspect of our existence to have some sexual aspect or flavor to it. 

Why is that? 

The realist, the part of me that has studied the science of sexuality, knows this is the result of our species having evolved to love the thought of sex, or, at least to be fascinated by it.  Sex, and thoughts of sex, intrigue us, for no other reason than they give us a dopamine high, whether we want it or not.  Along the way, I have said, and I have seen others here say, if there were a way to push a button and turn our sex drive off, we would.  The people who say that are usually in the reboot stage, the withdrawal stage, and if they could turn it off to avoid that pain, they probably would.  Now, past all that, I enjoy my sexuality, but I am very careful never to think of it as an amusement park ride.  Now, it is, for me, something much more profound, something to be respected.  In western culture, we do not really respect sexuality, or how we are inherently wired to be fascinated by it.  In 1,000 years, maybe we will have learned to respect it. 

Back before I knew I was addicted, back before I knew addiction was possible, like most others in our society, on some level, I thought of sex as a game.  I liked playing that game, and I was very good at it.  Back then, I had sex a lot more often, and, over the years, with more women than I should have.  I don't think I was a sex addict, and I never had an affair, in the sense I never committed, but, though I did not think of it as such, each new women was a new amusement park ride.  I had never heard the word "dopamine high" then, but, now, I realize that was the thing I was chasing.  I enjoyed the chase.  Now, looking back, with a much better, scientific, understanding of what I was doing, I know I don't ever want to go back. 

You have compared porn addiction to sex addiction.  I, personally, think they are, in practice, quite different, and I think porn addiction is an epidemic, whereas I don't think sex addiction will ever be.  Why?  While both may involve pushing a button to get a dopamine high, porn is a much easier, more available, button to push than sex is.  Sex involves a variable that porn does not:  Another human being.  That means there is negotiation, and a bargain is struck.  It requires mutual consent, and compromise.  Porn does not need consent or compromise, no bargains need be struck, there does not have to be dinner or drinks, or affection, or kindness.  Porn only needs a screen and a moment of privacy.  The distinction is about "availability."  Porn is universally available.  Sex, not so much, it requires more effort, and in some places in the world recreational sex is, still, culturally, taboo. 

That is another concept I would like to focus on, that being "recreational sex."  Humanity is one of the few species on the planet that have "recreational sex."  We are the only species on the planet that have, via birth control, invented a way to divorce sex from reproduction.  We have sex a lot more "for the fun of it" than we do to reproduce, and even when we are trying to reproduce, we still, for the most part, are having sex "for the fun of it."  Of course, "for the fun of it", really just means a dopamine high. 

The fact that we have evolved to have recreational sex makes both porn addiction and sex addiction possible.  What the human brain rewards with a dopamine high is sexual thoughts, not actual reproduction.  Nothing can cause sexual thoughts like High Speed Internet Porn. It is the kind of porn that is addictive for us.  Other types of porn, no, because other types of porn are finite, and limited.  HSIP is unlimited, infinite, and we can use that tool to have never-before-experienced sexual thoughts, every day, multiple times a day, forever, leading to multiple, profound, powerful, dopamine highs, and we are wired, by evolution, to love dopamine highs, because they are associated with one of the most powerful, inherent, hard wired, motivations humans experience:  the drive to reproduce.  And, to be Mr. Obvious, we reproduce through sex, which is why the sex drive, aka, the reproductive drive, is so powerful.

So, TK, back to your questions.  I am much more of a realist and conservative now, when it comes to my sexuality, than I was back before I understood I was addicted.  My concept of human sexuality, healthy human sexuality, is not using sex as an amusement park ride.  I still enjoy it, but since becoming unhooked from porn, I have sex a lot less.  Let's say 5 times a month, as opposed to 10 times a week before.  I had a lot more sex before because, due to porn, I thought that was normal sexuality.  Now I am very aware that porn is not normal sexuality. I am not trying to define what anyone's "normal" is, but what it is not is using sex to chase a dopamine high.   

Someone reading this may say "Bummer, William is saying have less sex, or we have too much sex, or sex should not be enjoyed," but that is not what I am saying.  What I am saying is now, as opposed to before, I understand the biggest sex organ is, actually, the brain.  What gets us off, during sex, or porn, is actually, and only, a brain reaction.  I still have sex, and I still enjoy it, but I am now much more aware that my enjoyment is the result of neurotransmitters, a brain reaction.  When I say I am more of a realist now, this is what I mean.  I think every addict needs to embrace realism, and understand, and study, the alpha and omega of their problem:  the human brain, and how humanity has learned to use various buttons to get a high.  But, it should be understood, that high is 100% in the brain. 

I am also more conservative now.  I am aware of the human propensity for recreational sex, and I am also aware of the Coolidge Effect, meaning we are wired to get off on new partners.  I am aware that I am wired that way, but I am also aware that I am not a slave to it, and I choose to be with one partner.  I am not chasing a dopamine high, via sex, or porn, any more.  When I say human sexuality ought to be taught from pre-school onward, this is what I am talking about, us understanding us, who we are, what we are, why we feel things, and what, exactly is a "feeling". 

We have invented something new to get hooked on.  Porn.  Specifically, High Speed Internet Porn.  This, by the way, is nothing new.  It is not the first time we have invented something to become addicted to.  Historically, probably, the first widely "available" button we invented, to push to get high on, was alcohol.  If you study how alcohol affects the brain you see our pal dopamine is involved.   

So, TK, in conclusion, I will say a couple things:  1) Study the problem, take time to understand that, if you are here, in a porn addiction forum, it is because you have conditioned your brain to give you a porn induced dopamine high that feels like liquid bliss.  We all did it to ourselves, unconsciously.  It is time to become self aware, to be self conscious.  2) REBOOT.  Do the hard 90, do 90 days hard mode.  Gabe Deem would say 90 days is no sure cure.  He is right.  Some guys take a little less, many take longer, but, GET CLEAN.  Once you get back to balanced, I think a lot of the questions you asked will answer themselves. 

Peace Out.

Will I AM

QuieroLibertad

  • Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #418 on: June 11, 2016, 03:20:06 PM »
This is a great thread. The journey to freedom has had a lot of ups and downs for me. I have accountability software on my computer, and an accountability partner who puts a restrictions passcode on my phone so I can't download apps (esp. ones that I can use to access porn). I've had these in place for a couple of years, but can't seem to get over the hump. I will go about two weeks w/no PMO, then either jack off without P or somehow find a way to get to it on my phone. Reflecting back on how things build up for me, there are a lot of hyper sexual thoughts just walking around during the day - see a girl on the street, or in my building, and the fantasies run wild. Several days of that, and while I haven't been jacking off or PMOing, I might as well have been - and that's where it always leads, to getting that dopamine high through jacking off or watching porn. I'm married, and my wife knows I have struggled with this - I really just want to be free of this thing that absolutely controls me and oppresses me - I am a total slave to hyper sexual thoughts, and eventually, to getting a release through jacking off. I want a richer sex life with my wife, and to give her the honor she deserves. I gave in to PMO today, which really sucks because my wife and I have been doing the karezza thing and me not having orgasms during sex - so I am basically screwing that up. I could use some encouragement, wisdom, anything ya'll have to offer. I know in my head that it's just a dopamine addiction, but damn is it strong - I've given up drugs, alcohol, and tobacco in my life, and this is the hardest damn thing I've ever battled - it's also the earliest addiction, as I started jacking off when I was in 8th grade. I think I lie to myself and convince myself that things are so much better than they used to be, because I do it much more infrequently - probably an average of a week and a half between jacking off over the past few years. But I just can't get over that hump and really gain momentum...

William

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #419 on: June 11, 2016, 04:07:54 PM »
Hi QuieroLibertad, thanks for the post. 

I want you literally, but also rhetorically, to stop for a second, and take a deep, deep breath.  Six of them, please.  If you have having continual two week runs, then relapsing, you need to rethink your approach and what you are doing, as well as how you are doing it.  Continuing to do the same thing over, and failing, is just perfecting the formula for failure.  You need to recraft your approach for success, and that means you have to reinvent what you are doing and how you conceive of yourself. 

First, you have to conceive as yourself as quitting, quitting forever, never going back to the slavery that porn addiction is.  You have to Get Educated, Get Tools, and Learn to Love Withdrawals.  Porn addiction only seems like a huge problem until you know it for what it is.  If is still a difficult problem, but not so huge you cannot overcome it.  You can.  You, and everyone else here, have been operating in ignorance.  You have been using porn as a button you push to get a dopamine high.  Best feeling in the world that, but part of who you have to become is a man walking away from that.  That call is going to hurt, but know the pain is coming, prepare for it, accept it, but know, also, it does eventually go away.  Many say 90 days, hard mode, no porn, no PMO, no M, no O, no sex, no porn sub, no vanilla porn, no porn memory, porn thoughts, porn imagination.  I know you are married and are having sex, which is OK, but the only time, in the reboot, you should allow yourself to think of sex is while you are having it, and the only thought of it should be about your partner. 

The education.  We are wired to love sexual thoughts.  Nature's way of encouraging reproduction.  Sexual thoughts only, really, became capable of being addictive, with the invention of High Speed Internet Porn.  That is a button we push to get a porn induced dopamine high.  Dopamine is a very powerful neurotransmitter that is part of our brain's primitive sexual reward center.  That center, by the way, is one of the reasons we are among the most successful species on the planet.  We are hard wired to be fascinated with sex, to like sexual thoughts, to have sexual thoughts rewarded with a dopamine high because nature chose that method to encourage us to reproduce.  There is a method, a purpose, to the madness, so to speak.  HSIP, though, has created something that did not exist for us, as a species, before.  It has made having constant sexual thoughts, about endlessly new, never-before-thought sexual experiences, possible.  It is not just the sexual thought that lets us ride a dopamine rush, it is a new, novel, sexual thought.  So, take time and understand what is actually happening.  Many of us start the journey thinking we have a P problem, an M, problem, and or an O, problem.  We don't.  Our problem is 100% above the belt, in the brain.  We have a dopamine problem, and we push a lot of different buttons to get it, P being the big one.  You did not become an addict over night.  No, it took time, months at least, maybe years, of constantly training your brain to get a dopamine rush in response to PMO.  You did not know you were doing that, but you, like all of us, were doing exactly that, training yourself to become addicted.  Very important, understand you are addicted to the dopamine high that hypersexual thoughts give you.  It may look like JO, or PMO, or M or O, but those are just a means of getting a dopamine high. 

Watch this vid.  Study your problem, and mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU

Next, Tools.  You need to reboot and rebalance.  The end of that process, if done successfully, is that you quit wanting it, you quit missing it.  In the beginning, the addiction is like a four hundred pound guy sitting on your shoulders with a loud speaker aimed at your ear shouting "use, use, use."  But, at the end of the reboot, if done right, it goes silent, or is just a little whisper.  You unconsciously conditioned yourself to reward porn and hypersexual thoughts with a dopamine rush.  Now, you have to consciously unwire to that.  Don't do that without outside help.  The biggest are porn blockers.  K9 is a good one, I used it.  They won't stop you from accessing porn if you are bound and determined to get to it, but if you are bound and determined not to, they are a huge help.  We can access porn in two seconds, the blockers at least slow us down.  Also, understand that dopamine is a reward for sexual thoughts.  Soooo, during the reboot, try and avoid gratuitous sexual thoughts as much as possible.  If you are going to be with your wife, practice, I mean really practice, thinking only sexual thoughts of her.  A lot of us fall into the trap of using porn memory during sex, which is unhelpful, and in truth, try and avoid thinking of sex at all during the reboot, unless you are engaging in the act with your wife.  You need to come up with a distraction technique, which is something you develop now knowing that in the future you are going to have the unwanted sexual thought.  It does not have to be much.  For me it was sucking my tongue off the roof of my mouth, which made a little click sound, and saying "no no no."  Sounds stupid, I know, but that distraction keeps a two second passing sex thought from becoming a sex opera in your head.  That deep breathing thing too, it is a bit of meditation.  I suggest when you have those thoughts, clear then and breath in and out six times slowly, deeply.  Some guys wear a rubber band and snap it when the thoughts creep in.  Plan now on having a distraction then. 

Last, learn to love withdrawals.  No, you cannot do that.  But recognize them for what they are.  They are hell, physical, mental, emotional hell, that the addict experiences when his brain is rebalancing and going back to normal.  It is important to understand they are your brain healing, they are a good sign.  You won't get them unless you are depriving your dopamine addicted brain of the fix it wants, so feeling them is progress.  The most important thing I can say to you is:  they go away.  No one told me that when I was rebooting.  I simply came to the point where I wanted to quit so badly that I told myself "if I have to feel this hellish, every single day, all day, for the rest of my life, I will feel it to quit the addiction."  What I tell you is do the hard 90, you will feel like hell between now and there, but out there in the future, it fades away.  You need, also, to not think so much about getting over a hump. The recovery is not linear.  It is starts and stops.  Before you are rebooted you will have some great, easy, days, and then bam!, withdrawals.  The withdrawals do eventually diminish and go away, just know that, but don't try and avoid them, and don't feed them, just recognize that after decades of abusing our brain's sexual reward center, it is going to punish us when we turn off the dopamine spout.  You need to think long term, and you need to think in terms of quitting.  This is not about cutting back and learning to use it once in a while, the mindset must be about totally eradicating porn from your life.  The fact you are doing this for your wife is extremely helpful.  Same with me, and whenever I wanted to go back (and believe me, there we difficult days and moments), I reminded myself I had a better reason to quit than to go back.  Porn is worthless.  It is helpful or good in no way at all.  The only thing it is, the only reason we ever watched it, was for the dopamine rush it leads to.  Honestly, it is not a close call:  porn induced dopamine rush v. love for your wife.  Don't do it for you, do it for her.  Do it because you want to be 100% for her, and porn takes something away from her.

Hope this helps.

Much Love.

Billy the Kid.

PF58

  • Member

  • Offline
  • **

  • 92
  • Personal Text
    Let Go ~ Be Free
    • View Profile
How It's Done!
« Reply #420 on: June 11, 2016, 07:38:09 PM »
This post is for porn addicts for whom use of porn has become seemingly impossible to quit, highly compulsive, and whose pornography use has caused significant problems in their lives.

Thanks William! This post (http://bit.ly/1Xgi741) is a confirmation of the realization that I came to recently—that unless recovery from porn is your #1 priority, unless you're truly fed up with your addiction—you will relapse again. As it says AA's Big Book, "Half measures availed us nothing." I abandoned SAA and the 12-Steps years ago because of philosophical differences with the program but I'm coming to a new appreciation for some of the things that I learned—bud didn't take to heart—like the above quote.

I now recognize that it's not the program, sponsor, strategy, lucky charm or tactic that will keep us sober—it's our absolute full commitment. When I abandoned the 12-Steps years ago I thought that the program didn't work but it was Me that didn't work. This is not to say that you shouldn't find programs and tools that resonate with you, but if there's too much reliance on anything outside of yourself for recovery then you're setting yourself up. That's the Outside-In approach. The Inside-Out approach is making a commitment to do whatever it takes which may very well involve utilizing the same tools that you erroneously thought would "do the trick."

I've heard many times over the years that there is "no magic bullet" and it's clear, as William so eloquently points out, that we must face the pain, not just bearing it—but embracing it. As one of my favorite teachers has said:

"To meet all the vicissitudes of life is penance enough! You need not invent trouble. To meet cheerfully whatever life brings is all the austerity you need."

So, in our pursuit of recovery, we needn't beat ourselves up about our past failings, we just need to face whatever pain arises out of withdrawal as we steadfastly tread the road to recovery!



Gracie

  • Global Moderator
  • Member

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 996
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #421 on: June 12, 2016, 05:58:58 AM »
William,

Gonna pop in here for a brief moment.  I was a "recreational sex" person in my 20's.  I married my husband shortly thereafter and initially was worried that I could not only be with one person.  So this aspect happens to women as well.  (No you did not say not us.  Just letting the guys know that women can be the same.)  Never a porn person though.  I was so surprised about how a complete in love relationship took that away.  I know that we are wired differently etc.  But I think that the emotional love connection is more powerful than we give it credit for being. 

My husband would lock on to anyone's butt by ogling.  Then I would hear, "she had a lot of jewels on her jeans."  Or ogling someone and then saying, "I was looking at her shoes."  He would be looking and come up with ridiculous things to say.  That only served to make it worse.  Once we had D-day.  And I pointed out to him this stuff and how common it was for him.  And how I knew he watched even before I caught him.  He saw the hurt.  He saw how committed I was to our marriage.  Men I want you to know the reason we are hurt, angry, disgusted, and gutted, is because we love you.  I want you to hear this again, we love YOU.  We chose to be with you and you chose to be with us.  We want the marriage to work. 

So many of you try to white knuckle through this.  It won't work.  William tells you this.   You need emotional healing.  Every time I read in men's journals here they talk about long ago hurt and abandonment, and low self esteem.   These are feeling things.  Emotion things.  As you have gone through this you withdraw more and more.  A lot of you say, "I found myself someplace I would never be or wanted to be."  Each step you take to "where I would never be" takes you one step away from your marriage, girlfriend, yourself, your family.  One small step at a time.  Then BAM you really feel alone. 

Even though it takes a lot to stay it at the beginning, for everyone, in the end it is worth it.  My husband can sense my feelings.  He focuses more on me during lovemaking.  I am not just a way to get off for him.  And I can tell a difference.  But had I not let him see the hurt.  Had he not felt my pain, I don't think he would have quit.  Never underestimate the power of raw emotion.  It feels so huge to you because you have not felt true emotions for a long time.  Instead of letting yourself feel, you have self medicated with porn.  When you exercise,  you strive to "feel the burn".  The burn hurts, at least in my experience, and yet you keep exercising because you know at the end you will have muscle, be slimmer or whatever you are striving for.  The same is true in your relationships.  "Feel the burn"  You will not be sorry.

Erasmus_xlt

  • Member

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 125
  • Personal Text
    Be transformed by the renewing of your mind...
    • View Profile
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #422 on: June 12, 2016, 07:14:17 AM »


William,

Gonna pop in here for a brief moment.  I was a "recreational sex" person in my 20's.  I married my husband shortly thereafter and initially was worried that I could not only be with one person.  So this aspect happens to women as well.  (No you did not say not us.  Just letting the guys know that women can be the same.)  Never a porn person though.  I was so surprised about how a complete in love relationship took that away.  I know that we are wired differently etc.  But I think that the emotional love connection is more powerful than we give it credit for being. 

My husband would lock on to anyone's butt by ogling.  Then I would hear, "she had a lot of jewels on her jeans."  Or ogling someone and then saying, "I was looking at her shoes."  He would be looking and come up with ridiculous things to say.  That only served to make it worse.  Once we had D-day.  And I pointed out to him this stuff and how common it was for him.  And how I knew he watched even before I caught him.  He saw the hurt.  He saw how committed I was to our marriage.  Men I want you to know the reason we are hurt, angry, disgusted, and gutted, is because we love you.  I want you to hear this again, we love YOU.  We chose to be with you and you chose to be with us.  We want the marriage to work. 

So many of you try to white knuckle through this.  It won't work.  William tells you this.   You need emotional healing.  Every time I read in men's journals here they talk about long ago hurt and abandonment, and low self esteem.   These are feeling things.  Emotion things.  As you have gone through this you withdraw more and more.  A lot of you say, "I found myself someplace I would never be or wanted to be."  Each step you take to "where I would never be" takes you one step away from your marriage, girlfriend, yourself, your family.  One small step at a time.  Then BAM you really feel alone. 

Even though it takes a lot to stay it at the beginning, for everyone, in the end it is worth it.  My husband can sense my feelings.  He focuses more on me during lovemaking.  I am not just a way to get off for him.  And I can tell a difference.  But had I not let him see the hurt.  Had he not felt my pain, I don't think he would have quit.  Never underestimate the power of raw emotion.  It feels so huge to you because you have not felt true emotions for a long time.  Instead of letting yourself feel, you have self medicated with porn.  When you exercise,  you strive to "feel the burn".  The burn hurts, at least in my experience, and yet you keep exercising because you know at the end you will have muscle, be slimmer or whatever you are striving for.  The same is true in your relationships.  "Feel the burn"  You will not be sorry.

I, for one, agree that porn was a substitute for feeling.  Then for a person my 30's, (while married) I was a serial adulterer with recreational sex.  That was before I found high speed internet porn.  But, it was all a Band-Aids for the deep-down hurt and pain I was feeling that I would not allow anyone to help with.  That and the dopamine hit that drowned out much of the sorrow and helped me feel good (for a moment).





Chip

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #423 on: June 12, 2016, 09:23:22 AM »
William,

Gonna pop in here for a brief moment.  I was a "recreational sex" person in my 20's.  I married my husband shortly thereafter and initially was worried that I could not only be with one person.  So this aspect happens to women as well.  (No you did not say not us.  Just letting the guys know that women can be the same.)  Never a porn person though.  I was so surprised about how a complete in love relationship took that away.  I know that we are wired differently etc.  But I think that the emotional love connection is more powerful than we give it credit for being. 

My husband would lock on to anyone's butt by ogling.  Then I would hear, "she had a lot of jewels on her jeans."  Or ogling someone and then saying, "I was looking at her shoes."  He would be looking and come up with ridiculous things to say.  That only served to make it worse.  Once we had D-day.  And I pointed out to him this stuff and how common it was for him.  And how I knew he watched even before I caught him.  He saw the hurt.  He saw how committed I was to our marriage.  Men I want you to know the reason we are hurt, angry, disgusted, and gutted, is because we love you.  I want you to hear this again, we love YOU.  We chose to be with you and you chose to be with us.  We want the marriage to work. 

So many of you try to white knuckle through this.  It won't work.  William tells you this.   You need emotional healing.  Every time I read in men's journals here they talk about long ago hurt and abandonment, and low self esteem.   These are feeling things.  Emotion things.  As you have gone through this you withdraw more and more.  A lot of you say, "I found myself someplace I would never be or wanted to be."  Each step you take to "where I would never be" takes you one step away from your marriage, girlfriend, yourself, your family.  One small step at a time.  Then BAM you really feel alone. 

Even though it takes a lot to stay it at the beginning, for everyone, in the end it is worth it.  My husband can sense my feelings.  He focuses more on me during lovemaking.  I am not just a way to get off for him.  And I can tell a difference.  But had I not let him see the hurt.  Had he not felt my pain, I don't think he would have quit.  Never underestimate the power of raw emotion.  It feels so huge to you because you have not felt true emotions for a long time.  Instead of letting yourself feel, you have self medicated with porn.  When you exercise,  you strive to "feel the burn".  The burn hurts, at least in my experience, and yet you keep exercising because you know at the end you will have muscle, be slimmer or whatever you are striving for.  The same is true in your relationships.  "Feel the burn"  You will not be sorry.
I hear you and I'm listening.  I'm so glad Gracie is here to share the female POV.

William

  • Guest
Re: Hello Gentlemen. Now we begin.
« Reply #424 on: June 13, 2016, 08:40:42 PM »