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Messages - Chaos Mind

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Porn Addiction / Re: relapse question
« on: May 01, 2015, 12:30:02 PM »
Quote from: Maxime
Just be honest with yourself; that's the most important point

Exactly this.

Rebooting is not a competition. It is not about who lasts the longest without PMO. There are no rules, there is no anti-PMO-law. Why? Because you are not doing this for us. You do it for yourself.
If you rubbed on your mattress and ejaculated then this is osrt of like masturbation. You need to decide for yourself if that's ok or not. Just my thought on it: Don't do it again. Find other ways to let off steam.

Ages 20-29 / Re: Getting back to life
« on: May 01, 2015, 01:58:36 AM »
We do the right things in life. Just not always, but finally...yes, we often do.

I think about life as a branched pathway. It's not like there is A and there is B, connected by a paved freeway...and if you step one meter away from that road you are "offroad" and on the way to evil and destruction. Everyday we get to choose from several directions. Some roads are easy to go, some are harder. They point a little off the main direction but that's ok sometimes. I believe: the more often we choose an easy road pointing away from our destination, the more we have to pick troublesome paths to get back on track.

This road here...a road to recovery, is truly one of the hardest to walk on. But with this we get back on track.
There has not been a SINGLE decision I regret in my life. Because where I am right now is a good place. I commited many mistakes in my life. But who tells me that avoiding them would have lead to the same satisfying result? I live a happy life. All the mistakes of my past I was able to make up for.

Same for you?

Ages 20-29 / Re: Love
« on: May 01, 2015, 01:51:09 AM »
Hi braveheart!

It's great to see what faith does to you. Everyone has his individual source of motivation. In my opinion it's not important how you call it, but what you make out of it. You are right about what you said about women and objectification. A little flirt here and there is no problem, but when you are too pushy I can totally see how men protect their girlfriends and women feel uncomfortable. You seek attention and you get it, so make sure it's a positive one. Make people wanting to talk to you. Make them tell others about "the friendly guy who is so different to the ones they've met before". People like you and me (and many other members of this site) are going to be the exception in a world of rudeness.

Ages 20-29 / Re: No More Excuses.
« on: May 01, 2015, 01:43:08 AM »
Hey Blame on Luck!

Welcome to the site and congratulations to your wise decision!
If you felt like telling your friends then that's absolutely ok. My best friends could tell me ANYTHING, no matter how shocking it would be. That's what friends are there for. I don't think your friends where surprised and didn't know what the problem is...rather they DO know but feel awkward for not being able to control it themselves. It's the same way I feel awkward when people go vegetarian and still live a happy life. This feels like "oh yeah? But I DO like meat and I can NOT imagine a life without...good for you that YOU do...". It's a mixture between envy and self-contempt. But now your friends know and you will see what a change that will bring. Maybe you've even triggered some thoughts and help them tackle their own porn-related problems - who knows?

Quote from: Blame on Luck
My friend, who knows what I'm doing, watched a show with nudity on Netflix last night. It was called The Almighty Johnsons. There were several softcore scenes in the first 5 minutes or so and he decided to just keep watching. I don't know what to make of him doing this and it honestly kind of upset me. It wasn't intentional on my part, so I'm not considering this a relapse or anything, but it's just upsetting how no one is respecting what I want or need here. It feels like they want to decide for me.

Tell me, how was that: did your friend tie you to the couch? Did he put your socks into your mouth and fixated your eyes open with two broken matches? In other words: did he force you to watch the show with him? You blame him for deciding for you, but you forget that you are a thinking individual yourself. If you are not happy with the choice of the TV programm, then leave. Take a book and read in another room. Do whatever you want to and do not watch it. Tell him that it triggers you and you don't want to see it. If he still insists in watching it - fine then, look for another occupation. In my opinion this does not mean he doesn't respect you. I think he just doesn't understand your situation. So either explain it to him or let him watch whatever he wants and leave.

The dreams you mentioned are quite common. Many rebooters report having sexual (and even porn-like) dreams. It may not be the best for your recovery, but it is incredibly hard to avoid it. It's more important what you do after waking up (and thus regaining control over your body). Don't M and don't even fantasize too much about the dream. Let it slide and continue with your daily routine.

What you report about masturbation without fantasy matches with what I felt in the first weeks. It feels good to be aroused just by touching. It feels natural and pure. But be careful since M can also be the backdoor to PMO. Draw the line and keep it in sight all the time. It gets out of control pretty fast if you do it too frequently. No M will make you recover the fastest, but if you feel safe doing it, don't exceed 1 try per week or so.

Best of luck and all best wishes to you!

Hey Robert,

it's a good decision to stick to one journal. I can see how creating a new journal somehow also draws a line, but in your case you've identified other problems, so let's not waste energy on new journals. Keep this one updated though!

Your plans sound good - as always. I have an easy question for you, but I don't expect an easy answer: what's the difference between THIS attempt and the last few you had?

Your key words sound great. Determination, Courage, Hard Work. Yes, that's a very good intention! Now let the intention become reality :)

For the other goals it seems like your life needs to focus on balance. There is confidence vs. nervousness. There is working hard vs. relaxation. There is "looking forward" vs. caring about your issues.

Quote from: Robert20
Maintain good habits such as, (Early Bed Times, Less Internet, Read More, Healthy Balanced Diet, Good Hygiene, More Running, Go To The Gym, Positive Thinking.

[/color]Are you serious? This is what you already achieved and now going to keep up? That's amazing!!

Also, I'd like to encourage you read through the thread I linked in my signature. If you like to focus on hard work, sports and other active things, you will need some compensation. Meditation, self-hypnosis or even simple breathing techniques might just be what you are looking for. I am sure they will help you a lot!

Porn Addiction / Re: Porn saturated world
« on: April 30, 2015, 01:55:57 AM »
There are two things that contribute to your problem.

One is the fact about the "porn saturated world" as you call it. And I agree - porn subs are everywhere. Maybe others wouldn't call it "pornographic material", because that's just not what it is. But our world is indeed "sexualized". I think people (especially men) are used to these images that commercials need to find more and more appealing women posing in sexier positions in order to attract attention. Yet we have to realize that this is not a new phenomenon. Sex sells...and it does for hundreds of years.

The other factor is your desensitization to porn. Now that you wean from porn you realize it better, where it occurs. I didn't quit facebook and stuff, but I made up strict rules about which pictures are okay to view and which are not. And I found that it's not only the content of the picture, but also the context. Learn to analyze your feelings. Learn to listen into your body and know WHY you want to click. Is it about content or dopamine?

Ages 20-29 / Re: The experiment that has become my new life
« on: April 29, 2015, 03:11:17 PM »
Day 127

I'm on vacation with my gf, so I'll keep this one pretty short. We went hiking today. The trail was tough and dangerous. First I thought we should go back, but we decided to go on. I felt anxious and always kept an eye on her. Believe it or not: when I visualized her falling down that mountain, several hundreds of meters down the rocks...I felt such an anger! I mean...all our lives are on razor's edge, aren't they? Car accident, sudden heart attack - whatever. It can happen everywhere anytime. Boom - and lights go out. Go on and ask yourself: if it happened to your partner. Today. Right now. How could you deal with the fact that you wasted several years of marriage/relationship for porn? It makes me angry, thinking back of all I did to her. Never again!

Porn Addiction / Re: My weakness
« on: April 29, 2015, 03:05:14 PM »
A misleading thing on this board is the term "porn addiction". I'd rather call it "internet sex addiction". It contains more of the toxic stuff we expose ourselves to everyday.

You state several times that you didn't act out and that you didn't do porn. Do you think your mind gives a shit? Call it porn, call it internet sex, call it fantasy, call it emotional the end it all comes down to what it DOES to you. And as you realized, it's hell of a dopamine kick so it does have the exact same effect as PMO'ing. Believe me, I know what I am talking about. My "porn addiction" is rather a sex chat and virtual flirt addiction, but that does not change a thing about the effects on my relationship. The day I log onto a flirt chat is when I call it a relapse, just as others brows for porn. You should make up the same strict rules for yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame you for contacting other women although you are married. I have done the exact same thing. That's why I warn you: don't be strict on the strict on the thing! Deep inside you KNOW when you are doing something you shouldn't do. Bad conscience brought you here, so that's a good thing.

Fight for it, dude! All support to you, my friend...

How did the review pass the peer-review process then? Being a publishing scientist myself this seriously makes me sad.

It is well known that some scientists like to push through their believes, no matter what resistence there may be. But in this case I wonder if financial interests play a role in that review...

Partners of Rebooters and Addicts / Re: pffft...
« on: April 25, 2015, 05:53:48 AM »
Interesting, I just learned that in the English language there is a separation between "ignorance" and "wilfull ignorance". I was about to say that not knowing something does not necessarily mean you are ignorant, because it might be you really just don't have a clue.

So your second argument is: you know about it, but still you think your situation is different and things will be better for you than for others - that is arrogance. Maybe that's a bit too harsh. We like to believe in the good things. We are trained to believe in our partners, even in situations where logic tells us we are wrong. Women who are married to smokers (and the other way round of course) might also know that there is a high risk of lung cancer and that probably they will spend the last years on earth alone. Still they want to believe that their husbands will be one of the exceptions. They rationalize and say "others take drugs or drink way too that's ok if he only smokes". That's not arrogance but a way to get along and not worry 24/7.

Furthermore, women have a good reason to believe that things will change. Because many do. Those men who change are here - hundreds of them. And they share their story and maybe also inspire women like you on how to make their husbands and boyfriends stop their addiction.

Hi Androg,

thanks for your scientific view on this!

You say that the experiment only worked on male rats, whereas female rats could not be conditioned. But I think I read somewhere that the Cooleridge Effect also works on female rats...they too will mate more often when there are always new male rats available. They experience the same dopamine kick as males do.

Porn Addiction / Re: Having Trouble Sleeping...
« on: April 24, 2015, 01:17:26 PM »
In my opinion, this is not a porn-issue, but rather a problem of conditioning. Your body needs the after-orgasm relaxation in order to fall asleep. The problem will go away after some time, I am sure!

The wrong thing would be to fight it, because fighting not to be sleepy is the opposite of what you want to do. Rather accept that you have this urge, but don't allow yourself to act on it.

Ages 20-29 / Re: Love
« on: April 24, 2015, 10:16:35 AM »
Your last post sounded like "well, yes, I couldn't avoid it".

It's not that porn sites open up themselves. It was an active process to click on the address bar and enter the name of the site. Browsing through the pictures and videos. Well, it can happen that you stop thinking for a moment, but again there is a moment when you actively decide to do so.

If you say you're back in the sadlle now, does that mean that you will never again visit a porn site? Can you affirm that here and now?
Take action. It's YOUR responsibility to change - don't mess with your will power. Show it who's the boss!

Hey guys,

I just found this very interesting article via "I fucking love science":

Story in short (although I highly suggest your read through the article yourself):
Rats were treated with different drugs. Dopamine was a big player (as always), but also quinpirole and oxytocin (which is released after the orgasm and helps us bond with the partner). Scientists were able to reward male rats for having contact with other male rats until they finally chose male partners over sexually receptive females - even after the medication stopped. They even noticed physical changes in their brains.

This is creepy. Basically what we all did was something very similar...we rewarded ourself for virtually coupling with all sorts of women and men. No wonder that many addicts claim they feel seriously attracted to shemales or experience a fetish for something they have never tried out in real life.

I'd just like to throw in that we're dealing with emotions here. You can't explain them and you can't make things better by providing logical arguments. I know what you're aiming at and I totally agree that it is good for our recovery if our partners show us empathy and support us positively. On the other hand there are so many men out there who - unlike us - are NOT registered here. They are not sensitized to the topic and their wives and girlfriends would show support forever without any effect - and that's frustrating too.

It does not matter if something is real or not. As long as we consider something as real, it is for all our consequences (the Thomas theorem). It's like the men punch their wives faces every day and then say "sorry, that does not mean I don't like you. It's the addiction, you know. Show me some support!". The comparison might seem weak, but I bet that many women the pain the suffer from is no different to what their husbands do to them when browsing for porn instead of spending time with their beloved ones.

How much support does a man need and how much does he deserve? And, more interestingly, how much is good for him? That varies with both parts of the couple and I'd hesitate to give a clear answer to that.

Ages 20-29 / Re: Getting back to life
« on: April 21, 2015, 12:35:50 PM »
I wouldn't technically call it a 'flatline'.. rather your body (and mind) is currently sexually satisfied. Bet you'll feel like going back at it in just a few hours.  ;D

Yep, same thought here. We can't just have sex all the time. One week you won't get enough, the other you don't feel like it at all. Men and women who always want it and are always horny only exist in the movies you and I are not supposed to watch ever again ;)
With your lovely wife at your side you won't struggle with low libido or a serious flatline, I'm sure.

Ages 20-29 / Re: Love
« on: April 21, 2015, 12:31:54 PM »
Boredom is one of your greatest enemies! It seems we have forgotten to be just for ourselves. We need smart phones and tablets and music players and people to talk to. We PMO because we escape from society and we PMO because we feel bored and lonely. That's a trap but you're not bound to fall. Either find new hobbies and things to do when you have free time, or learn how to be alone again. Learn to appreciate the feeling of having nothing to do.

Just one example: you are alone, your friends don't have time and everybody seems to enjoy something except you. That would be a time when you get tempted to edge or even worse. But instead you go for a walk. Even if it rains. With no umbrella. You appreciate the raindrops, the road under your feet. You pass other people and make up stories about them. You involve and take part without being noticed. I love doing this but I rarely find my time to do so.

Ages 20-29 / Re: NO PMO while having a girl journal
« on: April 21, 2015, 12:26:38 PM »
rust, sexuality is such a nice thing. Don't think of it as a battle. Be proud of yourself and for all the things you've achieved so far! The libido you experience shows you that your sexuality tries to find a normal way again - and I know how tough it is. If you get hard thinking about her, then smile and be happy. But speak to yourself: I will wait until she's back. She's worth it.

Porn Addiction / Re: Reboot/Recovery Playlist
« on: April 21, 2015, 12:24:00 PM »
Music :)

For me it depends on my mood. Good music however is a reliable technique to draw my attention away from porn. Sometimes I'll prefer interesting and new songs, but most of the time I am really into Heavy Metal. For those who don't use Death Metal as a peaceful outlet for bad emotions but still like hard music from time to time, I can recommend

Marilyn Manson - The Fight Song.

Little problem is: I noticed there are many believers around here and this is sort of an anti-religion song. So don't listen if you are easily offended. Other than that I suggest you pick songs that make you want to dance. Something that lifts you up and makes you smile again. If it's electro, then listen to that. If it's jazz - go ahead.

Ages 20-29 / Re: Love
« on: April 19, 2015, 12:12:56 PM »
Man, that's one of the most positive posts I have ever read on this forum!

It seems you took a 180° turn and are now back on the winning track. Everything you wrote down sounds really fantastic (including the cookie!. You got the ideas and you know what and how to do. That doesn't mean it will be easy all the time, but it helps a lot to be as reflective as you are.

Keep it up!

I lose focus chatting with women because sex is on my mind. That problem will fix itself once I lose these patterns.

Not only this, but it will also help your recovery if you practice regarding women as people instead of bodies. If sex is on your mind, make it stop being on your mind. That's at least the simple answer to a complex problem. Those women don't deserve being judged this way. They make themselves pretty because they want to be "wow!" not "fuck, yes bitch!". And no matter how beautiful (or even sexy) a woman is, she will prefer being complimented on intelligence rather than beauty mos of the times. That's a lesson I had to learn...not always saying "wow, you are so pretty!" but saying "you are such a smart girl...and pretty as well ;)!". Once you really MEAN this sentence, you are on the right path.

So... how are you doing slaughtering your dragon? ^^

I have my own journal - feel free to have a look at it some time :)

Ages 20-29 / Re: Love
« on: April 19, 2015, 09:42:34 AM »
Hi braveheart!

Glad you took the advice seriously and started your journal :)
Let's see...

Good to hear you spent a nice childhoot, bad to hear you got on that difficult path and glad to hear you found your way back - so that is kind of like a status quo in your life now. But I take it you still suffer from habits you can't really get rid of. Don't worry - the biggest step was that you stopped destroying your life and that you are willing to change. Now comes a difficult but also important part, so stay on track and keep updating your process.

Currently I'm having the problem when I get relaxed by doing normal stuff I want to masturbate. It's like these two things are connected to eachother.

You feel it because that's the way it is. The two things ARE connected to each other. There is a term called "sensitized pathways". It means that our brain notices certain patterns and tries to find short cuts. Look at it this way: you teach a dog that in order to get the box of treats he first needs to turn three times, then jump across a bar, sit still for 5 seconds, knock over the plastic cover and eat. At some point he will find out that as soon as his owner hides the treats, all he needs to do is fulfill the last step: uncover the treat and eat. He finds a shortcut. Now in this analogy the treat is PMO and the tasks are a chain of things that lead to you browsing for porn. For many of us (like me) one of these sensitized pathways is being alone. When my gf says goodbye and leaves to see a friend of hers and I have the appartment all for myself, I instantly get the urge to watch porn. Because over the last years, this had become an ever repeating pattern. At first I watched some TV, got aroused a little, ate some junk food, started a chat room and finally PMO'ed. My mind knows that chain, so as soon as she leaves, it goes like "can we PMO now? Can we PMO now? Can we PMO now?".
For your it seems to be a similar problem. For some reason a connection between relaxation and PMO has been established. It could be that porn consumption for you had been a way to release stress and to find some peace. Or also it could be that you abused porn against boredom. Relaxation = nothing to do = porn.

Good news: these patterns don't stay with you forever. Neurons build new pathways when the old ones seem to be not in use. But watch out: they are easily set up again (like for example you forget vocabulary for a foreign language, but when you are there and listen to native speakers, they reappear from the back of your mind). They say that habits stay with you if you keep them up for ~30 days. And in my opinion it takes at least the same amount of time until they are cut back.

What to do? Easy: just resist. When you relax and you get aroused, you KNOW now why that is. And you simply say "no" and don't do it. The more often you do that, the easier it will become to stay strict. At times it becomes really hard to keep yourself from comitting, distract your thoughts by doing something else. Go for a walk, read a book, watch a movie - these sorts of things.

When I chat with women and they tell details about themselves I find it hard to focus on what they're saying

Try this: next time you speak to a person and you find that you lose focus, immediately catch the thoughts that distracted you. What is it that withdraws your attention? It could be that you feel uncomfortable when alone with a woman (often the case since real women that are not made out of pixels overstrain porn addicts). It could be that you can't concentrate on the words because you only pay attention to the body. That would be a case of objectification and you'd need to learn to accept real women as persons with emotions, needs, strengths and weaknesses.

Generally what you could do is, repeat the main aspects of the woman's talk in your mind. Like: "I have visited a nice friend from Belgium lately...she's just been divorced and we spent some time together in the park" and silently you repeat "friend, belgium, divorce, park". Or you make up questions while she speaks (in the above example: what did they do in the park? Why did they get divorced? Since when do they know each other?"). Asking questions about things others tell us shows them that we are interested in what they have to say. And you can only ask if you've listened. That technique, by the way, I learned at University when we were told that everyone in the audience should at least have one question available to ask the speaker. That way she/he feels appreciated and you need to focus more.

Porn Addiction / Re: Unhealthy Food and TV
« on: April 18, 2015, 04:37:45 PM »
Hi Johnny!

It's a good thing you keep track of your body signals. I can assure to you: they are completly normal!

1) When watching TV shows or movies, i notice my eyes automatically moving to the women. I don't M or anything, and when i notice myself fixed on them, i stop and move my gaze to a different place. Is that good? or is it a relapse of some sort?

It's not good. But it's not a relapse either. Your brain is somewhat wired to women as pixels. Now that it doesn't have these sources available anymore, it looks for substitutes. There is no real difference between hot women on TV or hot women in internet porn. Both are part of the unreal / virtual world. If you notice that you like women on TV too much, you should definitively switch the channel. Don't allow any excuses. Starve the addiction to death.

(2) I noticed that my cravings for junk food and generally unhealthy foods increased, and it almost feels like a strong addiction to the dopamine surge that induces in me

It has been pointed out by many many addicts here that there is a strong connection between unhealthy food and porn. Both habits/addictions speak to our very deepest desires: we need calories to survive and we need mating partners. Both are controlled by dopamine. When I quit porn, I too gained some pounds. Mostly because I ate instead of PMO'ing since that made me calm a little when things got tough. 50 days later I started a diet to get rid of both problems at the same time and I can tell you: that works. I have never found it easier to lose weight than now. So you can use the connection to start a better life.

Ages 20-29 / Re: The experiment that has become my new life
« on: April 17, 2015, 04:55:59 AM »
Day 115

Guys, I definitively need to drop some lines here! It's been way too long and I notice I cannot procrastinate all the time - it's doing me no good.

First of all: I am still sober. First attempt and still no relapse which makes me very proud! But I've had a difficult week and still feel how my willpower has taken damage by whatever. At the moment it feels like I continuosly have to increase the force with which I push against the door to keep the demons out.

But all in all it has been a very successful year for me! One thing I find very remarkable is how this project catalyzed other follow-ups as well :) I wrote about my diet for fasting and I can proudly announce that I didn't eat or drink anything sweet for the complete 6 weeks. And not only that, I also didn't eat carbon-hydrates in the evening, took smaller servings and didn't drink any alcohol. Also, I started running again - twice or three times a week. And I am at the moment fitter than I've been in years. Last week I ran 10km both on Monday and on Friday and there wasn't even any pain afterwards. Alltogether I've lost 6kg (12 lbs) in 2 months and am approaching my desired weight of 74kg (150lbs) which I plan to hit at the end of July maybe (taking slower steps now). Now after fasting I continued to abstain from candy, although I did eat desserts when coming home to my parents' house for dinner. So I am basically looking for a happy medium that allows for both a balanced mental and physical state. That might be the main difference to the anti-PMO thing I do. For this the rule is simple: don't PMO and don't go for substitutes. But it's harder for staying healthy in general, because I easily rationalize this and that. I've been to a conference this week and the food was so good that I certainly had too much in general - that's why I am going to be more strict now back home.

Interestingly with the end of fasting, it also became harder for me to not masturbate. I found myself fantasizing too often about the female co-workers at the conference and after a few beers I have again been flirting with one of the beautiful ladies at the symposium. Bad thing is: she was responsive and that makes it incredibly hard for me to stop myself. Good thing: she was responsive and I realized, so my bad conscience came through and I was able to get back on track. I do not want to mess with other women's feelings - the least with those of my own girlfriend who I am so happy to meet again tonight (and I can honestly say and mean it).

On the long ride home on the train, there was a nice looking girl sitting across my seat. We didn't talk, but I caught myself oggling several times when she fell asleep. Now that I am home I have a whole day off and my girlfriend is still at work, so surprisingly old habits show up and tell me to find the old chat rooms and flirt with some women or at least look at some pictures. Of course there's no way I would be doing it, but I am a bit shocked that I still feel that tempted and even had some excuses ready for being considered.

I assume it's a life-time project.
Thanks for the support everyone!

Ages 20-29 / Re: Getting back to life
« on: April 17, 2015, 04:33:49 AM »
Yes, I know the reward circuit, too. I do. Surprisingly, for me food and rewards is much closer related than porn.

Porn + substitutes happen by opportunity and weakness. Eating or living unhealthily is a reward for having done the exact opposite.
Word up: Let's do it. Let's stay away!

Ages 20-29 / Re: Day one again
« on: April 17, 2015, 04:30:08 AM »
Quote from: relapser
I thought tonight that I might start working alot of overtime to keep myself away from home and the possibility of porn, but I think it would just be trading one mental problem for another.

Correct. Blowing off steam by drinking beer isn't too good an idea either. Nor is running away (i.e. working over-time for the means of not having to go home).

It seems you have yet to find other ways to engage in positive feelings and let the idea of porn slide by itself. How about you workout after your job instead of just continuing to work? How about you go for a walk instead of drinking one too many?

Very good you didn't PMO though, so that's a positive remark. Stay strong and be fair to yourself and others :)

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