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Messages - quitforeverthenwin2

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501
Success Stories / Re: Success story plus 3 lessons that will CURE your PIED
« on: November 11, 2019, 08:43:44 AM »
Congrats bro! Thanks for sharing the story, it's motivating and a really nice reminder how important being with someone you can trust is.

502
Porn Addiction / Re: Waking up at night to pmo?
« on: November 11, 2019, 08:41:18 AM »
I had this problem, I'd wake up and start moing or fantasizing almost before I was conciously aware of it.

Three things:

1) Sometimes letting urges build up before going to sleep would lead to this. Like say if I just got past urges enough to sleep, I'd wake up some hours later with it massively strong. The solution here was to handle any urges more thoroughly, going to bed later if necessary. Staying out of the bedroom for example.
2) Wear tighter underwear, that is not easy to take off, and perhaps add pajama pants. Wear something that is tight/ restrictive enough that it is not so easy to take off/reach into while half asleep. So you have time to catch yourself and "wake up".
3) Have a plan, visualize a plan. Okay you know this is a problem. Maybe go to sleep with an alternative activity right next to you, go to sleep planning and prepared for waking up with this strong urge. If you go to sleep with a plan, most likely you'll remember it as soon as you wake up with that urge. Then implement it of course.

503
Porn Addiction / Re: Can i use a fleshlight to quit porn?
« on: November 11, 2019, 08:36:28 AM »
Before I found about yourbrainonporn.com etc. I had tried a fleshlight as I thought I had "deathgrip syndrome" it was a huge problem and made things worse. A fleshlight, in my opinion, is a much more intense form of masturbation. I don't see how a fleshlight fits into a healthy sex life.

I think MOing without porn is better then a fleshlight. And ideally you can make it through the reboot without any of this stuff. Think about it, a fleshlight is artificial sexual stimulation just like porn, so why replace one with the other.

504
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 11, 2019, 08:23:18 AM »
 :D Commitment from earlier kept. Woke up feeling pretty tired but oh well, did what I needed to. Have a good bit to do today, in terms of cleaning and packing. Suppose I'll just listen to a bunch of audio books and work on it for a large portion of the morning/ early afternoon.

505
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 10, 2019, 11:22:17 PM »
WOW. Strange kind of alarming experience.

So, I am getting ready for bed. I had a brief flash of a pmo fetish then thought "maybe I can relapse, it's not a big deal it's just one". I was already planning like to post here about the lapse the next day.

I was like oh shoot! Rather then doing that tonight and posting about it tomorrow let me post about that thought NOW, before that bs, instead. I opened up this post and..... you see where it says WOW. That first line. I opened up to write the post and unconsciously instantly, not even looking at my screen I typed the words "I just had a lapse." I backspaced them and wrote WOW. Hmmm that's a little alarming.

Well let me remind myself. That shit is UP TO ME. I am not the superstitious type, I wrote that as it was a thought going through my head and I did the right thing by acknowledging it and posting here.

I may though, possibly give up the no internet this week commitment. I am having a tough time not fantasizing about girls in bed, finding a replacement behaviour for that. I kind of want to watch a few videos on my phone... ugghhh this is a bit annoying.

Oh well, I can make at least one commitment, weird ominous feeling things I wrote or not....... I'll get through tonight. I don't think it's necessary but let me make the decision now. I'll stay up all night and take a ritalin if I have to. After writing that sentence decided to take a half one as a little extra help. Drugs before pmo lol.

The ritalin has all sorts of side effects it seems and doesn't do a ton for my performance overall lately, but man that shit is helpful for this reboot. It just lowers urges a bit, but that little bit can make all the difference. Thinking I'll just perhaps keep the stuff on hand as a just in case/ back up plan. It also doesn't usually make me feel good, which I think is good, not really me escaping feelings it just somehow lowers the urges, they just pop up weaker. I think it just makes any thoughts other then what I am focused on weaker.

Oh well. See you all tomorrow.

506
Ages 20-29 / Re: Not gonna go it alone
« on: November 10, 2019, 10:45:09 PM »
Man, glad that stuff was so helpful to you! And glad you can relate to it, the persistence versus perseverance thing is something I have been thinking about A LOT. Lately and I really find it works for me.

Was really glad to read your journal because it made me realize, that I pretty much have to get back into public speaking down the road, just go through some pain of regaining old skills and feeling of lost time.

That juggler dude was awesome. Crazy how stuff like that works. That guy wasn't talking about life or anything, it was just a random comment he made to me about juggling years ago, but it stuck with me and I think it really applies in many areas.


Well glad to hear you got through the urge! Man, good reminder like you were saying, we've got to always stay humble. I have had some easyish days for the most part but then the briefest thought of fantasizing about PMO stuff. Have to remember, being humble and always ready to overcome urges is key.

Seems like you've been in a wave of urges more often lately, which is all good all part of the recovery.... Is there anything you can do to help it? I know probably a stupid obvious question. But maybe there is something from earlier in your recovery that can help a bit? Like some investment during the day or activity (other then what you are already doing) that can help weaken urges hours down the road when they come?
For example cardiovascular exercise seems to make my urges a bit rarer and weaker when they do it.
Being around friends/ socializing with the same people for hours and hours straight also can weaken urges a bit.
Meditation is another good one.
Maybe time to pull out some old tricks, perhaps things that you haven't "needed" to do lately. Just to try and make life a little easier (although by no means easy)



507
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 10, 2019, 10:28:57 PM »
Thanks! Ended up actually seeing that girl again, after she cancelled I purposefully did not invest much and waited a day to contact her. We mostly walked around, went to the beach. I was a little more aggressive then I'd like to be.

She's a pretty girl, but it's hot here where I live and straight up this girl needed deodorant ewwww lol. Not my thing, she was wearing a tang top and I could straight up smell her armpits.

I am moving soon, but I guess going on a mediocre date, when I had nothing else to do didn't hurt me. I have occasionally not dated for awhile then gone on a date with an awesome girl and totally fucked it up. So these occasional low pressure dates are good..... make the dumb mistakes that are inevitable after long breaks from dating, in low pressure situation and be smoother, more patient with the girl that are real prospects.


508
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 10, 2019, 10:34:39 AM »
Still pretty happy with my progress.

Just going to do that commitment that is nice once in awhile. No more fantasy about girls sexually or at all while in bed today and tomorrow morning.

Slept like 12 hours last night, I guess I needed it. Just fell right asleep really early. Can't remember the last time I slept that much.

509
Ages 20-29 / Re: Not gonna go it alone
« on: November 10, 2019, 10:33:23 AM »
I think your decision of just not doing much about the PH thing is a good one. That was kind of my instinct too, to do nothing. It was cool to hear a different perspective from Brandnewself, and I figured it's good to have an idea of something to do. (Whereas mine was to do nothing).

But in my experience with women (my personal, though I have heard otherwise. And if others have had other experiences very open to hearing about it) persistence is an overrated quality much of the time. Persistence in terms of chasing showing more interest etc. I feel like if a girl is on the edge, like hmmmm maybe I am interested. Asking her to hang out more times actually makes her less interested. If the girl has no interest at all, asking her out doesn't increase the interest..
.
(The time I got to date a girl who didn't want to date me (though she liked me, just didn't want to date anyone, since she was in the country temporarily) I did so by after pursuing her with persistence did not work, told her "oh no, I just wanted to be friends I only date American girls (UTTER BULLSHIT lol)". She is like "oh okay"..... "wait why do you only date American girls?  :(" then I just treated her as a friend for a few hours next time we hung out, not pursuing her at all and that was that, became my girlfriend

So maybe perseverance is good, going for the win, trying different stuff. But persistence, no way. ( Imagine: you're in a store and there was a shirt you thought was kind of cool, but meh not sure about it. The sales person stops by and says "hey want to buy it" "hmmm, maybe". Stops by 5 minutes later "hey want to buy it" Repeat that cycle. Will that make you want to buy it probably not.


Blueheron I totally relate with how you feel about writing. Like 100%. This feeling of like I used to have more passions and be better at them and am now moving backwards. I have that feeling with a lot of things (  I used to be a really good athlete but now my body is loaded with injuries). But with one in particular I am in the same spot. Public speaking. I did it as a hobby, honestly in the back of my mind felt good enough to make money doing it, I was getting really good. Getting all these compliments, winning little awards in speaking clubs. Moved cities, got a job that involved public speaking, not just doing it my way. I was nowhere near as good, the job just wasn't anything like the speeches I gave. I haven't done any speaking in months and months now. Now I know I am not as good, and just feel sad looking back at how good I was and feel like I let, what could have been my new passion go to the wayside. I am almost embarrassed to get back into it, because I know I am not close to as good as I was a couple years back.

You actually said exactly what I am feeling (but couldn't put quite into these words)

"But I guess I'm feeling a little like I'm in mourning for a self that no longer is or that might have been."

But I guess that's life. It's a shitty feeling and it may take some getting back into it, but if we did it once we can do it again. Maybe there is a positive side to this, as we work on ourselves and are less interested in our addiction, our mind is turning to other things we love and we are re noticing our potential. Glad you wrote that, because I almost wanted to find another hobby and didn't want to do public speaking and maybe never be as good as I was, or feel like I was not as good as I thought. But makes me realize, man I think just gotta suck that up and get back into it, when the time is right. For myself, maybe even do some of the sports I loved, just at a lower level.

Also man, writing something that someone else can read and be like "holyshit, that's just what I was feeling but couldn't express in words". Is pretty damn good writing, even if you don't feel like you're at the same level as before. Some skills/talent remain. Who knows maybe keeping this journal, being so self aware can add a new wrinkle to your writing in the future.

I'll try and think the same way, yeah my overall skill set in speaking is wayyy lower then it was, that feeling sucks. It's hard for me to really believe this, but maybe having time away from it and all these different experiences will give me new perspectives and lead me down even better paths with the speaking down the road after regaining the skillset, stage presence etc. ( But man, do I relate even as I write this stuff, thinking about what I used to have hurts). But again, the fact that we are hurting about this stuff may be good. When  I totally forget about public speaking, it doesn't hurt so much. So the pain may be the first step in getting the skills back.


In terms of the college not paying off feeling, I think that's honestly just normal. It's something you are working on for a long time that is quite difficult. Feelings like that always pop up, no matter how motivated we are.

One last thing, that relates to a lot of this stuff.

I used to go to a juggling club from time to time. There was this one guy there who was really good at juggling and was really chill. I remember he was working on a trick he knew, and very relaxed said " Oh yeah, I can't do this trick as well. I have been working on other tricks. When you work on a new trick the ones you already know get a little shaky because your hands/brain is getting used to doing new things and changing things up. But then once you get the new trick down, your old tricks get better again."

That was pretty cool and interesting. He just accepted that process and was aware of it. And I think that might apply to life, as well as other skills sometimes too. Just new stuff is being worked on and getting incorporated, so some other stuff might feel a little shaky for awhile but then in the end we'll get our old skills back and be good at the new stuff too.

510
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 09, 2019, 08:33:31 PM »
Thanks bro!

The book/ audio program is called "courtship after marriage". It may be an audio program I guess. I have the audio version which is awesome. Zig Ziglar was like the original legit for real motivational speaker, so it' really good. Then his son talks about his and other people's marriages too. I got it for free via the library, so hopefully yours has it, in one form or the other. Zig Ziglar is the man. So different then some more recent self-help stuff, thats a bit well... selfish and sometimes entitled. To sum his mindset up in a nutshell his catchphrase is "You can get anything in life you want.... if you'll just help enough other people get what they want".

He also back in the freaking 70s was constantly bringing up how dangerous pornography is. Dude was a genius, spoke eternal truths imo.

I think listening to more of his stuff (as I have done in the past) is a great replacement for other forms of stimulation. He was a huge believer in "automobile university", said listen to good stuff while you drive. Also said: Is motivation permanent? No! But is showering permanent? No. Does that mean don't shower? Of course not. Similarly you should find ways to top up your motivation everyday. Man I love that guy. Glad you asked about it, really has me motivated to expose myself to his stuff more habitually. He laid out the blueprint: Career. Great Marriage, family life, friends. It was all about balance and being a good citizen. He always said, his kids and family came first.

Thanks for sharing the routine man! That sounds like awesome, like an idea routine if I could get to that point. Really cool to see you are doing something like that, because that is like ideally what I'd like to do, more or less. Planning the next day out and journaling followed by reading man that's awesome. 

And thanks so much for the compliment man! You are of course a ridiculously good source of motivation and positivity! You are basically the gold standard of that on the forum

Edit: Oh yeah update on day. Feel pretty good, uneventful. I almost forgot to mention my day, which is a good thing imo. No challenges really. I do notice I need to build cases against people in my head less if that makes sense..... Like a coworker said something that annoyed me and in my head for like 15 min I am thinking about how he's the worst, he's not good at his job I never liked him. Then working with him the rest of the day, I realized he's pretty okay and nice. That's a bad habit I have. I'd like to somehow learn the art of being a little annoyed at people, rather then it being so extreme. (People being great or evil type of deal, in my mind)

511
Ages 20-29 / Re: I’m Back! Holding myself accountable pt 2
« on: November 09, 2019, 08:21:37 PM »
Congrats man! Glad things are going well with the girl and glad things are going well for you.

Looking at social media pics is okay for you? For some people it can be triggering/ slippery. Obviously it turned out good for you though and ended up with a real relationship which is good. Just thought I'd mention it.

512
Ages 20-29 / Re: Not gonna go it alone
« on: November 09, 2019, 08:33:46 AM »

Part of me really thinks that opening the door to dating has been a contributing factor to the wave of urges/sensitivity to triggers that I've been feeling lately. But, obviously, closing that door is a step backward, not forward. So the task now is to level up and learn to live in a new way with the dating door wide open.

Yeah, agree with all this and the part about when is it a healthy desire/ when is it an urge... Funny some of this same stuff popping up for me a little, even stress aside, dating, desire for girls can lead to urges. Unfortunately I think that general sexuality gets a little wrapped up in the addiction. So being attracted to a girl, even in a healthy way, for me at least, can also lead to urges. Being turned on in anyway can be a trigger. So it is a transition period. We have to stop all the bad PMO shit and just tough out (intelligently) rewiring to real life/ girls while that healthy network gets less and less attached to the PMO urges and stuff.

It's super awesome you shut that part of your life off for awhile, I think the right decision and also the right decision to open it up now. The break from it to get a solid time away from PMO is great, but I don't think there is ANY time clean of pmo, that would allow us to transition back to dating without dealing with a bunch of stuff. You already seem to know that though.

Cool perspective from Brandnewself. I would not have thought that. It's definitely great to get different perspectives. I had no solution other then "oh well" lol.

Speaking of just recontacting a girl, this reminds me. Something that can also happen is... girls are like masters of ignoring messages and shit they don't like.

So I met this girl, while visiting my old city. We texted and I voice messaged back and forth over and over. The girl clearly liked me and made it clear in all the messages. We'd gone on a date, and all my communication with her has been like confident, leading etc.
Anyways I messaged her something like " I don't know whether to live in this city or my old city". Radio silence. Not a word. Mistake on my part, I was hoping she'd be like "OMG, move back here!". But really I was like asking her to help me with a major life decision, looking kind of weak, not being the guy I have been with her.

I thought it was done for. Then a few days later texted her again, like nothing happened, my usual decisive self. And magically she is super enthusiastic and responds to everything immediately again. (Okay, girl you want me to be confident and decisive, message received lol) (Slight tangent, but she is not American and I think girls from much of the world are MUCH more direct about wanting a man to play his manly role)

Not saying this happened yo you, just what brand new self said jogged my memory: I've had a few experiences like this, where a girl likes me and I fuck up and send a really dumb/ lame text. The girl is like "okay, let's just pretend this never happened" ignores it and enthusiastically responds to the next thing I send. (texting sucks by the way lol)

513
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 09, 2019, 07:56:35 AM »
Thanks so much bro! Really appreciate the support and encouragement! Yeah it was very rewarding, those early wins are so key. Being aware early on.


So, last night and this am, thinking about girl's I've met and stuff. What I do is I fantasize the girl is there with me, think sexual thoughts etc. There is a line I have not allowed it to cross. BUT, it's not the best habit and can, actually if left totally unchecked WILL get dangerous. Glad I had kept the commitment the previous two days (where I wrote it and planned it) but it was tough.

I notice, I have been attempting to think mentally about what went well during the day as I fall asleep, very simply this is NOT working as a replacement behavior. It simply doesn't work, it does not keep my attention, as much as it's good in theory.

So I need to try something else. For the first two days of aiming to control my thoughts before bed, I was visualizing what I wanted in the future, that worked better.

Speaking of Audio books, perhaps that could be even better as a solution for now, listening to audio books as I fall asleep.

I'll test that soon. My only problem with it, is audio books are on my phone, I'd rather not have to look at my screen too late at night.

Another thing, moving backward further in time (which is often important). It seems to be a help to do a bunch of reading outside of my bed to get myself prepped for sleep first. So perhaps I'll do that tonight .

Also very open to suggestion? Anyone deal with a similar issue? Or to generalize it. Any of you have some good presleep routines? Like the very last few minutes before falling asleep? Strategies for replacing fantasy with something else while tired? Open to all insights and suggestions.

514
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 08, 2019, 11:47:07 PM »
Glad to hear the reminder! I think when we can look at the big picture. Like Okay, here comes that situation that was tough in the past, this is the opportunity to learn to get over it. Is great. It also can take the sting off of it, it's part of something bigger, our continued improvement.


The girl ended up answering some texts and then canceling our hang out. Pretty much what I expected, no biggie.

Had an amazing yoga class this evening. Goal has been no internet other then work/ this forum for the week. But honestly resulted in me being on here more then I wanted. Break from Ritalin tomorrow. I was on the Ritalin posting here, (you guys may have noticed some of my posts are like books today lol). That stuff is a little strong. You can be reading or something and like suddenly two hours have past.

I nearly listened to music walking home a small thing but not doing that was part of my internet free week. As I literally was putting the headphones in I thought "hmmm, this is me breaking a commitment, breaking small commitments in the past has led to me relapsing" ( Break the commitment not to internet, then commitment not to fantasize, then.... etc. etc.). " Meh, it'll be fine it's just the internet. Then I thought like "man it would suck so fucking bad to relapse. Why put myself at risk? So I instead played an AWESOME audio book by the MAN Zig Ziglar (this I allow myself in lue of youtube the internet etc.). Which I enjoyed a lot more then I would of the music/ youtube stuff.

Those little decisions EARLY on are so key sort of like Blue posted about in non-dual's journal, taking responsibility for all the little things that lead up to the lapses is so damn key.

The book is actually about having an awesome marriage. I know it's kind of early ( I am single lol) But I think it's actually awesome. I figure guys spend so much time (ESPECIALLY me) planning and learning how to get girls, years of it. I ought to spend years prepping and planning to have an awesome relationship/ marriage/ family culture. Trying to work on setting that shit up now, as it may take years for me to be ready. Love that book a lot of ideas that I thought would be good, repeated by a dude who had an incredible marriage (they were known for loving the heck out of each other and were married when they were like 20 till he died at 86 or so). Plus other great shit.

Also I think it's a good confidence boost. I study shit and bust my ass to get good at what I want to get good at. How many people are studying themselves and how to have a great relationship, willing to plan and work at it for years before it even starts? Not many, and in my experience hard work and preparation always pays off. I am putting in work to make a relationship good, so I can be confident that I'll have a good ability to create a good relationship. Knowing that, that is something I have to offer to women, I am bringing something rare and very rewarding to the table. Confidence boost right there.

515
Ages 20-29 / Re: Fed up, Tired, Angry and Sad
« on: November 08, 2019, 06:27:26 PM »
Hey man posting here is a good first step. Maybe reading up on some success stories and just stick around here. Read articles on your brain on porn.com educate yourself. I and I think almost everyone else here has felt exactly as you are feeling right now. Literally.

516
Ages 20-29 / Re: Day 100 - From hardmode to not hardmode.
« on: November 08, 2019, 06:24:42 PM »
Massive congrats bro! Keep up the good word.

From my experience, some crucial things are:

Don't do too much. Like aim to only orgasm sometimes. What would happen with me, I'd orgasm once it'd be great. Then I'd feel almost a little compulsive and would with more difficulty cum again with my girlfriend. Eventually stuff like that, could lead to me fantasizing about Porn in order to keep going OBVIOUSLY not good. So just enjoy whats going on with your girlfriend and do not push yourself to do too much and you should be good.

Be prepared for occasional chaser effect, where doing stuff with your girlfriend can actually result in urges and cravings for PMO afterward (it's all just a part of a recovery).

Also, I found it helpful to still do some rewiring type stuff. It can be really good to some nights make out a bunch, cuddle etc. without  you cumming. I found that to be super good for helping along the reboot and strengthening erection quality.

But everyone's a little different, so some pitfalls I made to avoid/ a couple things that helped me.

Congrats bro! 100 days is great. Just keep this up NO MATTER WHAT. Challenges may still arise, even major ones you'd never expect , that's life but it's still going to be awesome to be free of this issue.

517
Ages 20-29 / Re: 27 And Done With Porn
« on: November 08, 2019, 02:56:21 PM »
Hey been trying to catch up on your journal, will aim to read through the rest later but, looks like a lot of stuff going on right now, so I guess I"ll try and comment.

Hey man, really sorry to hear that about the argument. Hmmm. Man, that sounds like a unique situation. But I guess, I'll put in my 2 cents which might be super wrong. But even if it is super wrong, maybe reading it can just get your mind jogging like "man what a dumbass idea Quit wrote, but a better idea would be...." lol


Caveats: You have a lot more relationship experience than me. Some of my ideas about relationships may be a little old school. My ideas may be a bit outside the box, but again maybe could lead you to your own solution.


For me, the best relationship I ever had. Was pretty politically incorrect. We were not 50/50 partners, who were the exact same. Where'd I'd cry on her shoulder and she was my therapist. I didn't share tons of vulnerability with my girlfriend. At the time my work life was so shit. But I'd just say like "hey, works a little tough" with almost no emotion just to let her know what is going on. She'd say "oh, it'll be fine". Then we'd move on and have fun. ( our relationship ended with us both super upset as she was not permanently in the country)
When I've been TOO vulnerable with women, it's not gone well. (not saying, we have to be invulnerable).

The way I look at it, in a relationship sure the man and women are equally important and deserve full respect, but the man should be the leader. It was done that way for what a couple thousand years? When I say leader, it's not some anti women. "Do as I say!" type of deal. It's about aiming to take responsibility, holding in emotions sometimes for the benefit of the wife/ kids.

 A little aside: This book the willpower instinct, talks about how people with more willpower, are much more successful in life. We evolved a part of our brain that allows us to control our emotions. It evolved and is what makes people, people. Basically it made me realize, like willpower, being annoyed or upset and holding it in and stuff is just a part of life and a huge part of what makes successful relationships.

I think women want a man to be strong. No matter what theories people come up with sitting at a desk in sociology classes or whatever.


So your wife was upset about the relapse. Does that make you feel worse? Sure. And that's natural. Addiction sucks, and it makes us let ourselves and other's down. We'll be upset when we let ourselves down and other people will sometimes be upset when we let them down.

Let's look at this from the "women want some strength and security from a man, thus a man should act like a leader at times" perspective. How would a leader handle this?

If you were going into battle and your commander like fucked up a plan for the battle, you came in pissed off: like

you/ the army "WTF! That was your job, don't you care about us, we're all going to die now!"

commander: " Hey, that's really not helping anything, what I need from you is total support, this is just making it worse. Us generals need total support you know  :-\ "

Argument ensues.....

Would that inspire your confidence to go into battle?

What if instead.

You/the army whatever: "what the fuck you messed up the battle plan, we're all going to die. Do you think we don't fucking matter. You'll just let us die!?"

Commander Superboss: " I apologize gentlemen, I am working on correcting the issue presently"  (super calmly and confidently)

The army: " What the fuck do you mean you apologize, you SUCK YOU WORTHLESS PEACE OF SHIT"

Commander Superboss: "Gentleman, I understand you are upset. Again I will apologize. I am working on a revised battle plan for tomorrow, I will see you all in the morning."

I think sometimes when we are the leader/ being a strong husband father whatever. We gotta hold in our vulnerability and act a little more confident then we are even if we are not. The cool thing about it is, I notice when I have to hold in my emotions and act more positive then I am to idk coach somebody, help somebody or seduce a woman lol. It actually helps me to feel more confident and stronger.


The vibe I got from the whole thing was yeah, she was disappointed for sure and yeah that sucks. She wanted and expected more.
 
"that she has a right to be angry because she wants and deserves more from her husband than a porn addict."

I take that as basically like. "Hey your my husband, I want you to be strong and to have faith in you, WHAT THE FUCK be stronger, I want you to be a strong leader".

Can you control the fact that you already relapsed IN THE PAST. Of course not, you can't change the past. But you could maybe have shown some strength in your initial response.

Like that commander I talked about, like he fucked up people were mad at him. But he could totally handle the anger ( at least he acted like it). Something about that, the anger not affecting him at all, in my opinion would just be reassuring, kind of like "okay, man this guy must have something figured out, or has ice in his veins or something".

But the response of  like "I need you to support me right now". Would not inspire confidence if the leader says something like that.

So on the surface it's like:

1) A mistake happened, and you are doing your best. It has nothing to do with your wife who you love.
2) She is upset and just doesn't "get" it.
3) You ask for support.
4) What the fuck it's MY FAULT!?!?
5) No babe.
6) WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT"S MY FAULT YOU PEACE OF SHIT lol (huge argument ensues).

But looking at it from another lens, the lens of leadership of a women wanting strength.

1) The lapse happened, it has nothing to do with your wife etc. (no change here) (perceived as perhaps not as much strength as she wants, not as much leadership)
2) Your wife (the underlying meaning, although she kind of straight up said it.  " WHAT THE FUCK, I SELECTED YOU AS MY HUSBAND, YOUR THE LEADER WHY ARE YOU BEING WEAK" " NOW I FEEL SCARED AND I FEEL LIKE SHIT, ARE YOU REALLY WEAK? FUCK, THE PRIMITIVE PART OF MY SUBCONSCIOUS IS WORRIED THAT ME AND MY BABIES WILL GET EATEN BY LIONS BECAUSE YOU MIGHT BE WEAK. ARE YOU WEAK? CAN YOU REASSURE ME OF YOUR LEADERSHIP PLEASE? (I know this still sucks).
3) " I can't handle this now etc. etc." ( I can't lead, I need your support. I can not handle your anger) ( Yup, damn right I am not leading, I can't handle this shit)
4) Her: AAAAGHHHHHHH!!!!


So it was like
Mistake
Wife wants reassurance of leadership ability
Double down on not leading.
Enraged wife.

So yeah, you were down and felt like you needed support after the relapse. But the relapse also shook your wife and she needed some reassurance and reassurance of your leadership. So those two opposing goals didn't work. Because the seeking support etc. at that moment was the opposite of reassuring/ leading. 


Also man, sometimes in recovery groups and stuff there is this idea like "The spouse boyfriend/ girlfriend" has to deal with ANYTHING the other person does because the addiction is totally not our fault or whatever.

(Not saying this is what you're doing). I've heard people in recovery groups tell all sorts of stories.
One guy, had a sex addiction and would bang prostitutes all the time. His wife called him a whore mongering douche bag. He talked about what a bitch she was for not understanding it was a disease and the whole recovery group agreed that she was no good.

But idk man: He married her, there was a commitment made. He broke that commitment, disease or no disease. I can kind of see her point. She marries a dude and he's off banging prostitutes, she is pissed off and he's mad at her for not being understanding.

Another girl had this crazy sex life with her boyfriend (and also cheated on him a shit ton). Then decided she could never have sex with him while she recovered. The dude was upset, he was dating this girl with this wild sex life and then she after cheating on him decides they can't have sex anymore.

I don't subscribe to the disease theory myself. But I think people are still going to hold us responsible for our actions, pretty much no matter what. Disease or not. Not saying this to chastise you, I get it relapse suck and are hard as fuck and it's nothing to be ashamed of, but in my opinion if we do something that upsets someone saying to them "I have a disease" doesn't necessarily mean they have to just be okay with it and whatever upset them doesn't count anymore.

Maybe if I were a mental patient in an asylum and and my alternate universe girlfriend was visiting and I said or did some crazy shit, it's fair to be mad at her if she did not understand when I or my doctor told her I had a disease.

But if I am in a relationship with someone, two adults, me choosing to be there.  I think it's fair for my girlfriend/wife what ever to get upset about what I do, or expect me to have some ability to keep commitments disease or no disease.

I think that's fair. If due to my disease I don't want to be responsible for any actions I take, that's fine and a choice I can make. There are places I can find that. Mental institution. Straight Jacket. Criminally insane. I can marry some alien hybrid half centaur Cleopatra I imagined in my padded cell. But if I am going to get married in the real world and don't want to live in a mental institution, get the benefits of having a wife etc. then I guess I'll be held responsible for my actions, disease or not. I think that's fair and don't really see how it'd be fair otherwise.

Anyways man, long story short. Sucks about the lapse, but get right back on that horse!

You couldn't control the lapse, after it happened.
But maybe you could have tried to act in a way that showed leadership and inspired confidence and security in your wife
The argument is in the past, so you can't control that. But moving forward maybe you can perhaps try and handle this like a leader and show a bit of confidence and strength (even if you don't feel it). What would commander superboss do? lol

Also bro this is just about this one situation and one take on it. From what I read in the early part of your journal, you've done some super badass stuff, starting businesses moved to different countries already married. So I think you can handle this shit like a boss too. It's just a time and a place thing. Sometimes it's time to pull out the boss boots. IMO

But yeah man, I think support is super important. But maybe your wife, has certain needs/ wants (you showing some leadership and reassurance) that means she straight up can't support you at all times in this issue, because during some of the times you'll have to be showing the leadership, not being supported. This is all good, it'll prob actually help you feel better imo. Plus, man there is a ton of good support out there. If you want 100% support at all times, I think that's simply got to come from people who went through the same shit/ are going through the same shit. Which you can hopefully get here. Having a wife obviously presents unique challenges (as we saw) but a lot of us are doing this totally single some guys are killing it while single (Blueheron for example) so sufficient support does exist outside the relationship, maybe your wife's support (when it is there) can sometimes be looked at as just like bonus support?


518
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 08, 2019, 01:03:02 PM »
Little update, have some simple tasks I want to get done that I haven't yet, considering putting them off until tomorrow....

Did not hear back from that girl. No biggie. A footnote in my recovery, a nice reminder of how to do things the right way. Funny observation there.... I actually logically knew 100% I'd never seen that girl again. But my emotional mind was trying to ignore it. Sort of the flip side. We can rationally know a girl likes us but not be able to accept it. In this case I kind of was selectively ignorant of the signs that this girl actually was not interested in seeing me again. Oddly enough toward the end I could feel the vibe was a bit off. Also if when exchanging contact info a girl even suggests exchanging instagram instead of numbers, there is a very nearly 0 percent chance of seeing her ever. In my experience.

When I had instagram and we'd exchange them I'd never see the girl again. And if she suggested instagram and I have us do numbers instead/ say I don't have one ( I don't use it anymore), there is also no chance of seeing her again. This is such a ridiculously accurate metric it's crazy.

Basically if a girl really wants to hang out, she's cool exchanging numbers. Thank god phone is still the gold standard for communicating with people who are actual friends/ lovers. I think girls categorize dudes following their instagram as kind of fans/entertainment. Not a real dating prospect. So the good aspect there is that, we aren't missing anything by cutting out social media. It separates us in a a very positive way if anything. Not like a lot of other dudes who are on it, liking girls pictures and stuff hoping the girl will just comment thank you to them or something ( LAME). And filters out the noise (people who want you to follow them/ each other on social media but nothing else) versus real shit, people who actually want to be friends, date etc.


Also this thing with the girl does not "violate" my assuming the girl is into you deal. This girl was totally interested at first. I 1) Pushed things a little to quick. Which made her say no. We only knew each other for 15 min. She may have needed more time to like me enough to go on a date. And finally psychologically turning someone down causes them to rationalize why they did it, so not knowing this girl too well that was enough to make her lose interest. This is actually a very very powerful psychological effect. Ask someone to do you a favor and they say no: They'll like you less. Ask someone to do a small favor and they say yes and they'll like you. Our mind rationalizes our actions. Ben Franklin was actually famous for this, when he had political enemies thwarting his plans, he would ask them to do him tiny favors (rather then doing things for them) he'd ask in a way that made them feel important so they would say yes. After they did him a favor they'd like him more (just psychology) and they'd become friends.

So I pushed a little too hard. Suggested we hang out now, she wasn't comfortable with that yet. So she almost said yes, then said no. Now it's like I am pursuing her and she is pushing back, she got used to that. Then she goes home and is like "okay cool, I won by being alone and not hanging out with that guy..... wow that guy sucked." Suddenly the whole story can change in her mind. I was a guy pursuing her she was not interested in, rather then a guy she liked.

Plus this girl seemed kind of weird/ loopy too (sour grapes? lol). Not girlfriend material

Women, as confusing as they can seem to us in certain ways. Are actually logical in a lot of there actions. Until there is a real relationship with a women, in my opinion sexual. They can change there mind very quickly and do not value the guy too much and can be quite seemingly callous in the way they'll treat a guy when they change their mind about him. But really it's rational. We don't know each other well yet. There is no real relationship We haven't had sex.

 I think most women wait to SOLIDIFY their continued desire to have a sort of relationship with a man until it really is a relationship, until something is real. Perhaps sex several times (or equivalent intimacy and commitment for you religious folk) or perhaps bringing each other into aspects of your lives.

I think I am hopefully becoming a bit more like a woman in this regard lol. Be really into (Edit: INTERESTED, not into,) a girl, but very able to lose all interest very quickly, keeping interest totally provisional and being very unattached to what happens with a girl, until we have a real relationship and have invested in each other.

Again not meant to be callous nonsense like "Man, who cares about women, I have no feelings" nonsense. Just being smarter about investing feelings, like many women are. Investing them AFTER the relationship is created and not before.


Been thinking about this a lot. There is a lot to be learned from women when it comes to handling women lol and relationships etc. Not by the advice they give, but how they handle things and behave. I notice most girls don't chase super hard, they are often amazing at suggesting a hangout in a casual way, but only after it's like a foregone conclusion. They let you come to them. They are provisional in their interest, willing to lose interest quickly if they do not like something, until the relationship is real. They seem to handle rejection well. (though we men feel bad about it, thinking they are babies). And they often get over breakups quicker it seems.


519
Ages 20-29 / Re: Not gonna go it alone
« on: November 08, 2019, 07:47:32 AM »
Haha thanks man, glad to hear I am not just full of bs. You are right about a ridiculous amount of stuff yourself and have great insights.

Glad to hear that you are cutting out the trending page. Doing that is saving you so many little dopamine bursts over the course of the month, that'll do a ton for your recovery and I think overall brain health, as obviously we know these dopamine hits from PMO and related stuff are not good for the brain.

I feel you on the winter, I am moving back to a city with winter lol. Got me worried. I have heard in many places part of what lowers people's mood in the winter is lack of vitamin D. Vitamin D is essentially a hormone really important to mood brain function etc. Our body makes it when sunlight hits our skin, so supplementing with it in the winter can really help with mood general health in the winter etc.


Sorry to hear she has not called yet. There will be LOADS of opportunities in the future, she may call again or she may not. There is some odd thing that happens, when working towards cool shit and forgetting about girls they tend to call/text back or even out of the blue.

Easier said then done, but a good way to handle the PH thing is to act like nothing happened at all. You run into her, just be friendly and chill whatever don't bring up the call, dating etc. I remember reading a book from a guy who is amazing with women he said "Remember NOTHING is a big deal". I know we want to be genuine or whatever but I think it's okay to at least pretend and act like it's not a big deal lol. Just to keep things comfortable and cool.

Tons of possibilities:

She may have gotten the message and be nervous about calling back.

She may have gotten the message and since it took you awhile, she is trying to make you wait too lol.

She may have lost interest.....if so  very possibly because of too much time between date 1-2 or last contact. 

She have gotten the message and be making you wait because she read it in some book that said to do it.

No matter what is going on or whether she does call back or not the best bet is to keep moving forward ( you already know that). Hows the atomic habits thing going? Adding in some new positive wrinkles to your routine life to get excited about can probably help.

I remember that was something I'd thought about a lot, the real world is just different from PMO. There so much ambiguity, can't just get immediate short term pleasure whenever we want. We can want something, not get it. Have no idea whats going on. That's just how reality is and I think just learning how to deal with it better is part of recovery but the rewards will be AMAZING


Edit Just as I was about to log off had another thought on that:

Maybe redundant but to put it in very simple and direct language. Reintroducing dating and women into our lives is a HARD part of recovery. The ambiguity and stress etc. Can be very triggering. I think that is something that is forgotten/ left out in a lot of success stories. It's like Hard recovery-> Yay! Great girlfriend. But really the reintroduction of women dating etc. and all the ambiguity, the insecurities that get brought up is just a super tough part of recovery.

So I think that could be helpful to remember, you're still obviously killing it, this is just one of those tough parts of the recovery, but like all the other tough parts will ultimately be super rewarding.

Maybe look at it from OUR (the people reading your journal's perspective). To us this is the Blueheron show, the blueheron story, the adventures of Blueheron. Not the PH diary. Not to talk bad about her, but none of us really care about PH  too much or whats going on with her other then you went on a date with her. To us, she's just a character that pops up in your story. If this journal were a movie, it wouldn't be a romantic comedy with you guys as costars, it'd be an adventure movie about beating the porn monster, and PH would  probably be 3 frames in a montage of you getting good with girls with like rocky music in the background. Maybe since she was the first date, the museum date would get 2 minutes of screen time and that would be the segway into the montage. Your recovery and adventure started wayyy before meeting this girl and will continue on way after

520
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 08, 2019, 07:30:07 AM »
Commitment kept. Thoughts popped into my head by remembered the commitment and was able to push them out.

Met a girl last night. I went to get some fruit and this girl was saying bye to these two guys. I was sly lol and walked really slow so I could time that as she said bye to them and walked she would walk right up behind me. So I was able to basically very naturally turn my head and casually start a conversation with her.

She seemed pretty cool and interesting she does some marketing stuff. I messed up a little bit. Not following my system. I am moving soon, so I thought "I want to make things happen fast!". The girl obviously liked me but I suggested we continue hanging out that night even thought it was late and we'd just met. We still ended up exchanging numbers with plans to see each other today, but I am not sure they will happen. I have seen from my experience if I ask a girl to hang out right then and there and she says no, now she'll also say no to what else I suggest. Thats why the "leave her wanting more" is so damn good.

Me and her pretty clearly liked each other. Just hada great convo,and walked together (we live near each other and walked and talked for close to a mile) and should have just set up a time to hang out in the future.

Oh well. I wasn't perfect but overall it was pretty good. Writing here my dating experiences is good to help me remember what works. I rememer Blue, you mentioned writing in a personal journal I find that helpful too, especially for learning and seeing patterns in what I am doing, so maybe I can record what happened here.

Now what I am about to write may be bs. Good chance I never see the girl again but just in case:
Also let me keep myself honest. I kind of feel like something could still happen with this girl. There is some danger here:

There expectation of something happening with a girl then it not happening is a trigger for me..... so be ready. If she never responds no biggie. If we hang out and I feel sexual tension then nothing happens go for a walk and shower.

If something does happen, no matter how far or not far it goes. Be ready for chaser affect! Get DA FUCK out of the apartment, call friends stay occupied. Read in great room.

And remember no pressure to do anything. I can say no. Recovery comes first, not forcing anything. If anything happens, it'll be for enjoyment and because it is a healthy part of recovery not so I can just say " I did this" or prove I can function.

Anyways, feeling pretty good right now (thanks ritalin!?) Looking forward to a good day. Have some important shit to get done. Then some errands and ought to take the time to think about what else will be rewarding to do/ get done today.

Also gotta watch myself feel really good but a little bit umm sexual. Those " I feel good! and excessively sexual (even for real people)" times can be dangerous. So I'll be sure to be aware. Just a reminder to myself feelings always pass. Desire or an urge can build and build and build and build until it's like we can't take it anymore and then!..... It goes away. It's not like we're some piston filling with steam and pressure building (thought it feels that way). It's all going on in the brain and feelings desires, urges come and go. And getting through them is just making my brain healthier.

BIG PICTURE.

521
Ages 20-29 / Re: Is it good to also quit masturbation?
« on: November 07, 2019, 06:28:50 PM »
It is good that MO does not seem to be a very harmful thing for you. If it is not harmful then good for you. It may however be a good idea to temporarily cut it out. Especially if your dick is acting weird for a full two days after moing, that could mean your brain/body could use a break from it. Before my PIED, I could MO everyday easily.

I also do want to point out: You do not NEED to mo to relieve sexual tension. If it feels good to you, that is great but our bodies do not have to MO. That feeling of "need" would pass, if it turns out helpful to your recovery to stop moing for awhile.


522
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 07, 2019, 06:25:24 PM »
Also just thinking about it, going to continue, perhaps looking into ritalin protocols and maybe other medications. It does seem to be a bit toughter for me to control my thoughts then others. A huge part of my addiction is I could get lost in fantasy for hours and hours and hours. That's an issue I have, my mind can just be stuck on certain thoughts for hours and hours and it is very tough to break. (except at times like now, I took my prescribed dose of ritalin).

Did yoga today, got a massage (was worried about it being triggering, it was 90% fine. If I ever got massages super skilled OLD ladies only, it's about healing the body that's it.) It seemed to feel pretty good. I was super overwhelmed earlier and just took a full ritalin pill twice today, just been pretty calm mostly and clear headed for the first time in days, it's pretty nice. My apartment is also clean now. Man does that shit make you love cleaning.


Commitment: For tonight once again, no thoughts of girls, fall asleep perhaps reviewing day or listening to an audio book. Same for the morning.

I was slipping down the wrong path for a few days, now yestarday and now today slowly pulling myself out of that, keeping things going strong.


523
Ages 20-29 / Re: TOTAL CHAOS
« on: November 07, 2019, 12:05:15 PM »
Just read the whole journal, great stuff man!

Keep going strong. Remember, there are lots of healthy ways to distress! It's great you have a roomate, I think having that having someone nearby and it being very easy to socialize is excellent, even if we don't always feel like it.

524
Ages 20-29 / Re: Not gonna go it alone
« on: November 07, 2019, 07:15:57 AM »
Your instinct in staying away from the youtube trending page is 1000% right, in my opinion. That's an area where as soon as I read it, it's not like "hey man, maybe it is a good idea to cut out, do what works for you". The youtube trending page is the worst imo. It's designed to get you clicking, tons of images that are essentially soft core porn, are often used as thumbnail photos.

For me (and many others) youtube in general can be a huge trigger. Even aside from those images the clicking on different videos etc. as a habit can be a problem.

525
Ages 20-29 / Re: My journal to recovery- Could use support
« on: November 07, 2019, 07:07:24 AM »
Good ideas. Yeah, for me it can be very tough. The key is often not starting. That is one of the difficulties I have, I can get lost in my thoughts to a pretty ridiculous extent.

But anyways, it wasn't the case yesterday! Kept the commitment.

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