Can no P but only MO lead to recovery?

Hello everyone.

I'm a PMO addict since the last 11 years. And I seem no where near to be on the road to recovery.

I get such strong withdrawal symptoms when I'm not PMO'ing. I feel irritated, restless, unable to concentrate and insomniac.

Will it be a good idea to MO but no P or P substitutes? Can this help me on my recovery? Will this reduce my cravings in the long run or will it be a worthless attempt? Is there anyone who went from No P, to not PMO completely? Does it work?

Do you have porn-induced erectile dysfunction and/or porn-induced delayed ejaculation?

If the answer to the above question is YES, then you want to abstain from masturbation as much as possible in the first months of recovery.

If your answer is NO though, then masturbating is OK and can in fact help you reduce urges for porn and even prevent a porn relapse. People often report a "chaser effect" after masturbation that increases urges for porn in the following days after MO, so keep an eye out for that.

Good luck!

I mean no harm to you or your response ilovemyhand but I have to disagree.

People often leave out one huge caveat when it comes to 'masturbation being okay during a reboot' - NO FANTASY!! Chances are, it's going to be really difficult for you to masturbate to sensation only. If you are masturbating to fantasy, then that's about the same thing neurochemically for your brain- it cannot separate imagination from reality and you are STILL reinforcing those addictive pathways.

If you masturbated while fantasizing, THAT is ABSOLUTELY a relapse.

Personally, I think masturbating period during the initial 90-120 days should be eliminated. Hold your testosterone, don't just carelessly spill it out.

Technically MOing to fantasy would only be a relapse if one fantasised about porn. If you fantasise about real girls thats not reinforcing porn and not a relapse. HOWEVER if you have ED both masturbation and fantasy should be avoided. Pretty hard to fantasise normally when you wired one's brain to porn from a young age. Masturbation is also wired to porn in the brain. Im taking the no fantasy and no M approach. When rebooted I may think about real girls. No to wanking.

I have personally noticed that MO'ing without fantasies although does way with the withdrawal symptoms temporarily, but it doesn't satisfy one a lot.

These cravings are a craving for Porn. Nothing else.

I'll keep your suggestions in mind.

I have to agree with Ilovemyhand. I haven't PMO'd in about 5 weeks and a couple of days ago I MO'd and fantasized about a girl I am pursuing in which we have a mutual attraction...felt great and I had no guilt & no shame. I was quite relaxed, happy, productive and was communicating well at work.
Also another thing that could of been a factor for feeling great was I did some intense exercise/weights a couple of hours before I MO'd so my dopamine could of been elevated. So I would say its ok in that regard.

Give yourself small goals (if no ED)..I think of it of I rewarded myself with an MO after 5 weeks no PMO/nofap. My next goal is 10 weeks no PMO /nofap. This approach is more manageable I believe and there is less shame or guilt associated with if you think you have 'relapsed' to MO, which can lead to more shame, guilt / being down on yourself for relapsing from my experience.

A no brainer for me is if you have an urge for PMO/MO replace it with doing intense exercise / weights training / sports as this increases dopamine...easy logic if you ask me.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/544214-does-exercise-release-dopamine/

I bought a home gym set on ebay cheap and have it set up in a easy accessible and visible place in my house so it reminds me.

Pisces21 said:

I mean no harm to you or your response ilovemyhand but I have to disagree.

People often leave out one huge caveat when it comes to 'masturbation being okay during a reboot' - NO FANTASY!! Chances are, it's going to be really difficult for you to masturbate to sensation only. If you are masturbating to fantasy, then that's about the same thing neurochemically for your brain- it cannot separate imagination from reality and you are STILL reinforcing those addictive pathways.

If you masturbated while fantasizing, THAT is ABSOLUTELY a relapse.

Personally, I think masturbating period during the initial 90-120 days should be eliminated. Hold your testosterone, don't just carelessly spill it out.

Click to expand...

The 5 times I've masturbated during this streak I did it to touch only. Still, I disagree that fantasy is necessarily bad. For fucks sake, even Gary Wilson, the authority on recovery from pornography addiction, recommends trying realistic fantasies at some point to help rewire the brain:

"Most people report that avoiding fantasy early in a reboot is very helpful - including during sex with a partner - because avoidance actually reduces cravings. However, if someone has little sexual experience, it may eventually be helpful to engage in realistic fantasy about real potential partners in order to help rewire the brain to real people (instead of screens). After all, humans have been engaging in sexual fantasy for eons." - YBOP book, chapter Fantasising, page 162

I think you confusion comes from Gary Wilson often saying we should avoid porn and porn fantasy. That's the type of fantasy that activates the same kind of neural circuits as watching porn does.

Pisces21 said:

Personally, I think masturbating period during the initial 90-120 days should be eliminated. Hold your testosterone, don't just carelessly spill it out.

Click to expand...

You don't decrease the amount of testosterone when you ejaculate, nor do you increase it when you don't (except the spike at around 7 days mark of abstinence that reaches baseline levels shortly after).

And as I've said, it makes little sense to force masturbation abstinence upon those who just want to quit porn and have no porn-induced sexual dysfunctions - in fact, it's counterproductive.

ilovemyhand said:

Pisces21 said:

I mean no harm to you or your response ilovemyhand but I have to disagree.

People often leave out one huge caveat when it comes to 'masturbation being okay during a reboot' - NO FANTASY!! Chances are, it's going to be really difficult for you to masturbate to sensation only. If you are masturbating to fantasy, then that's about the same thing neurochemically for your brain- it cannot separate imagination from reality and you are STILL reinforcing those addictive pathways.

If you masturbated while fantasizing, THAT is ABSOLUTELY a relapse.

Personally, I think masturbating period during the initial 90-120 days should be eliminated. Hold your testosterone, don't just carelessly spill it out.

Click to expand...

The 5 times I've masturbated during this streak I did it to touch only. Still, I disagree that fantasy is necessarily bad. For fucks sake, even Gary Wilson, the authority on recovery from pornography addiction, recommends trying realistic fantasies at some point to help rewire the brain:

"Most people report that avoiding fantasy early in a reboot is very helpful - including during sex with a partner - because avoidance actually reduces cravings. However, if someone has little sexual experience, it may eventually be helpful to engage in realistic fantasy about real potential partners in order to help rewire the brain to real people (instead of screens). After all, humans have been engaging in sexual fantasy for eons." - YBOP book, chapter Fantasising, page 162

I think you confusion comes from Gary Wilson often saying we should avoid porn and porn fantasy. That's the type of fantasy that activates the same kind of neural circuits as watching porn does.

Click to expand...

And therein lies the fallacy - 'engage in REALISTIC fantasy ...POTENTIAL partners'

First of all, the goal is the rewire with REAL women- not just POTENTIAL partners - I have done that very thing and all it did was give me more brain fog and it was a relapse . Gary Wilson himself will tell  the only difference between fantasy and watching porn is the mouse, essentially.

As William here has said numerous times on this forum - the issue is not PORN per se, it's SEXUAL THOUGHTS and nothing gets you thinking sexual thoughts to the degree of PORN - releasing cascades of dopamine. So fantasizing about 'realistic encounters' and MOing to that is absolutely a relapse. It's still reinforcing those addictive pathways that keep you content to have a sexuality all in your head and seeking dopamine as opposed to real, actual women.

The thing is the difference between what's realistic and pornographic can be very gray- especially for the addicted.  Part of this process is realizing that you can not control the addiction. You need to radically remove it. You may initially set out to make it 'realistic' and seeing this, your addicted brain can very, very easily turn this into some porn scene locked into your memory. Even if you did have the control to have it remain 'realistic' fantasies ( which I don't think anyone really does), it would be far more prudent to err on the side of caution and just remove it.

The only attempt at rewiring that is acceptable is with an actual woman. Masturbating to 'realistic fantasies' is still artificial sexual stimuli, it is still settling and not the goal and it is ultimately putting you back. End of story. You should ask yourself why you'd even want to masturbate to 'realistic fantasies' in the first place.

Oh and repeated ejaculation does reduce testosterone - this is evidenced by the often noted lowering of the voice through abstinence many report and less patchy facial hair and more confident, 'alpha' behavior.

Gary Wilson himself will tell  the only difference between fantasy and watching porn is the mouse, essentially.

Click to expand...

I've quoted you what Gary Wilson says. He says porn fantasy activates the same neural circuits as porn - not realistic fantasy about real potential partners. Stop giving your opinions as truth, man - it's intellectually dishonest.

As William here has said numerous times on this forum - the issue is not PORN per se, it's SEXUAL THOUGHTS and nothing gets you thinking sexual thoughts to the degree of PORN - releasing cascades of dopamine.

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Oh, William said that.. Who the fuck is William?! Dude, there's nothing wrong about having sexual thoughts about your girlfriend, wife or the girl your dating if it's realistic. So what if it releases dopamine?! That doesn't make it bad. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that's present every time you're motivated to do something. You CAN'T stop dopamine from firing unless you shoot yourself in the head.

The only attempt at rewiring that is acceptable is with an actual woman. Masturbating to 'realistic fantasies' is still artificial sexual stimuli, it is still settling and not the goal and it is ultimately putting you back. End of story. You should ask yourself why you'd even want to masturbate to 'realistic fantasies' in the first place.

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As Gary Wilson explained in the quote above, it can help you rewire!!!! Can you stop pulling things out of your ass please?

Oh and repeated ejaculation does reduce testosterone - this is evidenced by the often noted lowering of the voice through abstinence many report and less patchy facial hair and more confident, 'alpha' behavior.

Click to expand...

Dude, that's not evidence - that's anecdotes. The scientific research HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE on the subject and no such effects have been noticed - only the spike in testosterone around day 7 that returns to baseline levels shortly after.

YOU ARE FULL OF BULLSHIT!

You're now attempting to be hostile with me.

All I am trying to do is to caution folks about the slippery slope of 'realistic fantasy' - why don't you actually get out and read some of the other accounts of users? Many have noted what I am discussing here - so if I am 'forcing my opinion', then you're doing it at least as much as me. And I am doing it without resorting to ad hominem remarks.

Additionally, most people on here would find it laughable that you do not know who William is on here. He's easily the most influential member here, see topic 'Hello Gentleman, now we begin'

Finally, yes- you will have sexual thoughts about WIVES AND GIRLFRIENDS because you are in a RELATIONSHIP with them and therefore having active sex with them - they are not just 'POTENTIAL PARTNERS'

P.S. You still have yet to define what differentiates 'realistic' with 'pornographic' fantasy - an addict would have a tough time too

Yes, I got annoyed. Mainly because I put effort into transcribing a whole paragraph from Gary Wilsons book that basically puts the whole subject to rest, but you keep insisting that it's not true just because you strongly believe that it isn't. Gary Wilson has been reading rebooting accounts for the past 6+ years and who probably has the best overview on the subject period - that's why I call him THE authority on pornography addiction. No offense to William (I actually remember reading his post at some point), but I'm sure he'll understand if I choose to give Gary's advice rather then (reportedly) his.

BTW, this is one of the smaller communities about pornography addiction, so excuse me if I don't know all of the members. For the past 4 years I've mostly be frequenting r/NoFap (not subscribed anymore), r/pornfree, yourbrainrebalanced.com and NoFap.org (also not anymore).

My opinion to the debate would be that, while masturbating is quite harmless for many, it still is very deeply associated with porn for addicts, and for many porn addicts even without dysfunctions, it really can help to abstain for some time. And many find it boring or even impossible to masturbate to sensation only, cause it really is pretty damn boring to just have sex with own hand. But masturbation really isnt the root of problem here. But if you ask me, why spend time wanking when there are real sexy chicks out there to chase. Even talking with a girl is more exciting than just M to sensation only.

I'm not really advocating masturbation myself either. As I've said, I've done it 5 times during the course of 8 months and in all cases it was to finally be able to fall asleep or to take away the horniness that I was afraid might lead into me seeking pornography. Why I don't masturbate more? -I rather just have sex with my fiancee.

The thing is that there is this huge amount of people convinced that an MO is equal to porn. In fact, I shit you not, some are convinced that masturbation to sensation without having an orgasm is worse then PMO (I could give you usernames on NoFap.org). This results in a sad amount of people believing that if they stroke their dick they've somehow lost all of their progress and they might as well do a full PMO relapse. I'm not making this up.. I don't know how familiar you guys are with places NoFap communities, but there's a lot of that there..

So, by all means, save your sexual energy only for real women if you want - nobody is forcing you to masturbate! But FFS, if a MO (without porn fantasy) is gonna prevent you from watching porn it does make sense to do it.

The only case in which you really, really want to go as long as possible without masturbation or you might not get the desired result is if you're trying to recover from PISD. For all the rest, I think what I've said in my first post of this thread should be the answer to the question "Is it ok to masturbate?" - you can, but be aware of the chaser effect. If masturbating is something they're ok with or not should be for them to decide.

And for those of you who are implying that a former porn addict MOing is bound to relapse. The majority of people on r/pornfree  (including me) occasionally masturbate, yet still abstain from porn.

REMEMBER: NoFap is NOT the most reliable source of information regarding recovery from pornography addiction and Gary Wilson pointed out that they have misconceptions regarding masturbation more then once. Yet a lot of people still take concepts that originate in that subreddit as truth.

Here's another relevant quote from Gary Wilson:

"Masturbation is NOT a relapse. Applying the word 'relapse' to natural rewards is complicated, at best. If you choose to use the word relapse, apply it only to porn and porn substitutes.
YBOP is NOT an anti-masturbation website. I need to shout this, because I've read this nonsense on many forums, where debates over Internet porn degrade into masturbation debates. The name of this site is "Your Brain On Porn." Confusion occurs because:
1) This generation sees masturbation and porn use as synonymous, and
2) Men who recover from ED often do so best by also temporarily eliminating masturbation/orgasm. Temporarily eliminating masturbation, or reducing your frequency, is all about recovering from an addiction and porn-induced ED - nothing else. We do not advocate abstinence as a permanent lifestyle." Source: Rebooting Basics article.

If you're single, it's best to follow Pisces21's advice. If you reboot with a partner, then yes, I believe MO is not that big of a problem.

P memories... That's a huge problem for me. On this I agree with Pisces. The 'fantasy' scenario that you think you are inventing could be a porn from years ago reenacted by your brain subconsciously, even if it's no longer part of your active memory. Even if you think of your partner, you might just be replacing the performer in a scene you saw on screen with her.

I've never had ED. However, I struggled with extreme performance anxiety and anxiety in general along with OCD, intrusive thoughts and bizarre, mysterious conditions that are unexplained by science like chronic rhinitis and chronic pelvic pain disorder, all of which were completely cured by a mere 30 days of hard mode.

This reboot thing really seems to be the universal medicine for all of your physical and mental problems. However... my longest streak on hard mode was 48 days. After 40 days it seemed like all porn memories were gone so I decided to drop the hard mode. As soon as I did that, some of the old symptoms mentioned above seemed to want to make a comeback and they did to a limited extent. But the porn memories came back. Slowly but surely. In the beginning they were just puddles here and there but eventually they flooded my mind like a tsunami. Since then I MOed a couple of times and now I'm going for the 90 days on hard mode. I feel that even that may not be enough unless I find a partner in the meantime.

Since the age of 18 I've been imposing restrictions on my PMO/MO habits. Now I'm 25. Before discovering this site I used to PMO once a week. Since discovering RN in November last year I had some good streaks and all in all some six months with only 3 relapses to porn. Despite all this, I still haven't got rid of porn memories. Actually I get flashbacks from porn that I've seen several years ago!

This journey is going to be a long one for me... I just know it.

@ilovemyhand, I was going to say lower your tone.. I see you have, so thanks. Stick to the content of each others points and address them, and yes, if you have to repeat yourself, then repeat yourself. Friendly debate is encouraged, and different opinions are welcome, but keep it civil and polite.
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Now to chime in quickly:

@Pisces21, you said "People often leave out one huge caveat when it comes to 'masturbation being okay during a reboot' - NO FANTASY!! Chances are, it's going to be really difficult for you to masturbate to sensation only. If you are masturbating to fantasy, then that's about the same thing neurochemically for your brain- it cannot separate imagination from reality and you are STILL reinforcing those addictive pathways."

As ilovemyhand pointed out, it can "eventually be helpful to engage in realistic fantasy about real potential partners in order to help rewire the brain to real people (instead of screens). After all, humans have been engaging in sexual fantasy for eons." - YBOP book, chapter Fantasising, page 162"

Will that work for everyone? Probably not, and it isn't suggested everyone do it. That is why Gary used the word "may." But, we must acknowledge that it has been helpful for many rebooters, especially those who have gone many, many months/years, without any sexual stimulation of any sort.

The masturbation question is covered on our Basics of Rebooting page here: http://legacy.rebootnation.org/index.php?topic=67.0

If you scroll down you will see "Caveat 2: Some guys with porn-induced ED need to orgasm in order to jump-start their brains after a reboot or extended flatline"

To answer the question about what differentiates "realistic" from "pornographic" fantasy, my answer, although not perfect, is imagining people you know in realistic situations, not recalling/remembering something related to porn you've seen.

As William here has said numerous times on this forum - the issue is not PORN per se, it's SEXUAL THOUGHTS and nothing gets you thinking sexual thoughts to the degree of PORN - releasing cascades of dopamine.

Click to expand...

The "issue" needs to be defined here. What problem are we talking about? Porn-induced ED? Porn addiction? If PIED or PA is the problem, then the problem isn't sexual thoughts, it is conditioning arousal to a certain stimulus, and addiction related brain changes as a result of chronically using a certain stimulus. Put simply, the problem is a result of chronic porn use, not chronic sexual thoughts.

You might ask "isn't the problem dopamine bursts and the brain changes that follow?"

Well, yes. It is true that this is all a result of dopamine spurts (and the brain changes that follow), but not all spurts are created equal, and they don't all come from a specific stimulus. After all, there is a reason porn-induced ED is a relatively new phenomenon.

Porn-addiction and porn-induced sexual dysfunction are a result of dopamine being chronically released to a specific stimulus (porn), and everything associated with that stimulus, (voyeurism, searching/seeking, endless novelty, fetishes, multiple tabs, strange acts, shock, surprise, anxiety, etc.) not simply dopamine being released.

Internet porn provides what sexual thoughts cannot, unlimited novelty, shock, and surprise. Viewing internet porn is different than using sexual thoughts, if this wasn't the case guys with PIED would easily be able to masturbate using "sexual thoughts."

To be clear, the only thing on this forum that is considered a "relapse" is intentionally viewing porn. But the important question to ask yourself is "do my behaviors and actions mimic porn use?"

Important to keep in mind: all advice about rebooting comes from successful rebooters, and our understanding of the latest neuroscience behind sexual conditioning and addiction. The fact is, that some rebooters find thinking about "real partners" beneficial after they have abstained from porn for an extended period of time.

This link gives quotes and further thoughts on using realistic/porn fantasy: http://yourbrainonporn.com/what-about-fantasizing-during-reboot

And again, make sure you read the above Reboot Basic link if you haven't already: http://legacy.rebootnation.org/index.php?topic=67.0

@ilovemyhand, you gave good advice in your original reply, and @pisces21 you were wise to give a word of caution about M'ing using fantasy, but there is a difference of how realistic fantasy vs porn fantasy affects certain individuals, so advice should be given, and opinions stated, but each individual rebooter will have to decide what path to take.

I have to thank you guys for putting out your perspectives here. As a struggling addict, it means a lot. Let me tell you about my own experience.

I MO'd about 3 times in the last 6 days. Before that I had something like a week of hard mode.

Why I thought about MO'ing?

To put it simply - the withdrawal symptoms were getting unbearable. They were affecting my work. I had a few important things coming up - work related things I could not simply ignore nor put on hold. But the stress, anxiety, restlessness, mood swings, irritation, depressing thoughts, frustration and heaviness in my head incapacitated me from working at all. I am a highly motivated and focused guy. But during this period I was restless and felt like doing nothing forever.

And I had all of those with a hard on. I was carrying that to work and on the streets - just every where!

My Experience of the last one week

My sleeplessness has increased. I can no longer take my 30 minutes afternoon nap. I cannot fall easily asleep during the nights. Once I wake up after 6 hours, even if I try later on, I cannot go back to sleep (I usually sleep around 7-8 hours a day).

So I decided, if this restlessness is here to stay, and I'm incapacitated from work, I'll incapacitate from P as well. Craving for P with a hard on (an ever ready dick) is much harder than craving for P with a dick that has already been milked! (I apologise for the graphic language ) Hence I MO'd only to the pleasure of sensation 3 times in the last 6 days. In the 3rd time, while I was about to O, I imagined a girl that I like and saw her pic (She was fully dressed and nothing erotic about that pic). I'm mentioning this because it's nothing like that imagefap stuff.

Despite all this, I feel restless and irritated. I feel as if all my enthusiasm was flushed some where else. I still cannot sleep.

Moral - If despite MO'ing my withdrawal symptoms are on the increase, it means that my brain isn't getting what it has always wanted - P. Porn is the craving for. Nothing else. Earlier I was experiencing these symptoms with a hard on, now I'm experiencing even worse symptoms without a hard on. But they're still there.

Now I realize that I must keep my MO'ing still for the sake of pleasure only. At max, some mind created fantasy but certainly no images. But I think these cravings are for porn. And I do realize that our minds cannot differentiate between what we imagine and what we actually do, so there could be reinforcing of the neural pathways of P on some level, but it's no where near the level of actual P. This, I can say.

I think the smart thing for me would be to continue like this without P for 90 days or so. Then maybe experiment a week or two on the hard mode. But I think the recovery gained by just eliminating P would also be substantial.

Pisces21 said:

I mean no harm to you or your response ilovemyhand but I have to disagree.

People often leave out one huge caveat when it comes to 'masturbation being okay during a reboot' - NO FANTASY!! Chances are, it's going to be really difficult for you to masturbate to sensation only. If you are masturbating to fantasy, then that's about the same thing neurochemically for your brain- it cannot separate imagination from reality and you are STILL reinforcing those addictive pathways.

If you masturbated while fantasizing, THAT is ABSOLUTELY a relapse.

Personally, I think masturbating period during the initial 90-120 days should be eliminated. Hold your testosterone, don't just carelessly spill it out.

Click to expand...

I agree with this

In my experience, the answer is no. Not only does MO fail to prevent me from relapsing, but it actually leads me to relapsing faster. Masturbation stimulates the brain with orgasm, but doesn't fully satisfy the addiction, so I find that for me personally, it serves as a gateway drug to PMO, sometimes within the same day. Some people here also point out that the novelty of the porn fantasy is what causes our addiction, so if you fantasize during masturbation (kind of the entire point) then you're only digging the hole deeper. In my experience, only total abstinence from artificial stimulation works. Give the brain an inch and it'll take a mile.