A Brief Note on Pornosexuality

H

HumbleRich

Guest
It is quite late, so if any of this is unclear, that is why.  I hope this reads well.

Someone on another support board, an SO of a porn addict, used the term pornosexuality to describe what she saw as the abduction of our sexuality by porn, the objectification that replaces our natural sexuality.  A hyper-sexuality, if you will.  What appears to be our natural sexuality (in my case hetero-sexuality) develops into something different altogether.  It is subtle.  We don't notice it at first.  We don't see it because it isn't a change in our sexual orientation, per say, as much as a change in how we experience sexuality.  In some cases it does get close to the line.  I have experienced HOCD myself.  At times I have wondered if I am bi-sexual.  Only after rationally looking at myself and thinking through it all did I reinforce my confidence in my hetero-sexuality.  One of the big "AHa moments" was the acknowledgement that I hyper-sexualize everything, especially my attraction to women. 

I can identify two major moments that led me to the realization that my natural hetero-sexuality had turned into porno-sexuality.  The first was an observation of how my girlfriend (now, my fiancee) behaved.

About two months into dating, she and I snuck into the women's bathroom in her dorm to shower together.  She and I had already had sex, but this was our first time bathing together.  I recall a lot of awkwardness on my part.  I stood there with her, naked, the water flowing over us.  I wasn't entirely sure what I was supposed to do.  She smiled at me.  It was an innocent smile.  Unsure of what to do, I made an excuse to leave after having washed myself, to her disappointment.

It was after I had left that it hit me.  During the ten minutes that she and I were in the shower she hadn't once, even for the slightest moment, looked down.  Not once.  I puzzled over this for the rest of the day.  She and I have bathed together a few times since, and never did she look at my manhood. 

I noticed that sex was similar.  It wasn't the same.  She did look at my arousal, but her glances were fleeting, unlike my attention, which was focused on her breasts, and never strayed.  When she looked at my erections, it was completely different.  It was with short, second long glances, which then went back up to my eyes.  She never stared, she never objectified.  As much as she loved my body (and still does), it was my personhood, my spirit that she was sleeping with.  It was me she was having the experience with.

I remember that there was a period, while she and I were dating, where, taking her lack of attention to my manhood as an insult (warning sign, anyone), that I insisted she tell me how my penis looked in my jeans and trousers.  I asked her to check me out (the way I checked women out in porn).  I asked her to tell me, in detail, what she saw.  It actually turned me on to have her ogling me.  She enjoyed it, at first.  It felt kinky to have permission to check out her boyfriend so candidly.  She soon grew tired of it, though.  It simply felt wrong.  She loved me and she was attracted to my body. 

But she didn't like objectifying me.  And that is the key.

Two more moments really drove the porno-sexuality sickness home.

2.  One night, right before sex, I actually asked her to change her outfit to show more cleavage.  This is really important!  For me, cleavage is one of my porn fetishes.  I suppose it is natural for a man to be attracted to his girlfriend's breasts, but objectifying her to the point where he asks her to change.  That is a big warning sign.

3.  The complete opposite.  My girlfriend and I were at a hotel, I was laying in bed, she was wearing a bath robe that was open.  She smiled at me, flirting, expecting me to make a move, but I just lied there and stared. 

What is my point?  Porn hijacks our sexuality and takes control.  Suddenly, we objectify our partners without even realizing that that is what we are doing.  We objectify ourselves, and we lose our engagement with our partner.  I had the green light to go, but I just lay there like an idiot.

Gentlemen, this bad habit is a plague and it ravages our sexualities, turning them into something bizarre and unnatural.

I have identified a few major symptoms, or results of this in myself.

1.  My partner becomes a bunch of body parts as soon as her clothes are off, or sometimes even when they are on.

This is just not normal, fellas!  Why did I just stare at my girlfriend when her robe was open?  This is something very poignant.  Somewhat ironically, she was inviting me to gaze upon her body, but not to stare, to gaze.  To notice, to observe.  Not to objectify, to glance at.

Our partners want us to look at their bodies.  They really do.  There is nothing wrong with liking our partner's breasts and finding them attractive.  Our partner likes our penis, after all.  But there is a big difference between enjoying and appreciating our partner's body and objectifying it. 

When I asked my fiancee, much later, why she never looked down while we bathed, her answer was plain and simple.  She never saw or thought of me that way.  What way, I wondered to myself, but didn't ask out loud.  I figured it out myself, though, after a bit of thought.

She had the mature ability to appreciate and be attracted to my body, including my penis, without objectifying it and me.  She didn't have to stare at my manhood, the way I stared at her breasts.  She never had an urge to ogle my body.  Her attraction to me was much deeper, much stronger and more sophisticated. 

The way she expressed her sexuality towards me was very different from the way I expressed mine towards her.  In fact, it wasn't so much expressing it with her, as much as at her, or on her.

And this is what pornosexuality is.  It is the focus on using the woman to satisfy our own sexual appetite.  She isn't a person, in this perspective, but an object.  Just as the images on our screen are objects.

2.  I'm not sure whether this is a separate part or if it is simply a result of the above, but porno-sexuality lacks the engagement of natural, mature sex. 

It has been a hard pill to swallow, but I have come to realize that I never learned how to engage a woman sexually.  I am only now, at 28, starting to explore sex from my fiancee's point of view. 

This is something that porn addiction simply obliterates.  Actually, as addicts, engagement was simply something we never had to learn.  I don't know about the rest of you, but my addiction to porn began long before I started having sex.  Therefore my experience with sex was a result of my experience with porn.  It was one and the same.

When using porn I was the only person that mattered, and so when I had sex I acted and behaved the same way.

But when we have sex there is another person.

A woman needs to be engaged sexually.  I prefer engagement to the popular term seduced, because the latter implies passivity on the part of the woman.  This implied passivity, this objectification is exactly what we have to leave behind as we overcome our addictions and attempt to build a new, healthier lifestyle.

A woman needs to be engaged as a human being.  This means engaging her in general, by being romantic and funny and stimulating.  It also means engaging her sexually.  It is important to know how to turn her on and get her in the mood.

Alas, the only way to engage a woman sexually is to treat her like a whole, complete human being.  You can't engage a bunch of body parts.  You can't engage someone you objectify. 

You have to make the decision to see the person.  You have to decide not to look down. 

That is what is required.  We have to take back our sexuality.  That is what it means to overcome our addiction.  To take back our lives and focusing on our partners.  That is what it is all about.

 
Very interesting  :) Especially as a married man I can totally relate to the whole objectifying her body whilst she only takes short glances at yours. My wife too has a great cleavage and like you it is a massive turn on for me. She usually dresses quite conservatively as she is now in her mid-40's so believes she is too old for showing off her cleavage, but I love it, especially when we're alone. I'm guessing it's the way women are "programmed" they're more turned on but what they hear, smell or feel rather than what they see.
 
Very interesting read, this really strikes a chord with me and really gives me a buzz reading this and reinforces the need and the will power to reboot.

Thank u
 

Maxime

Active Member
Very interesting read, although while I'm probably addicted (for now...), I've been with my girlfriend way before, and cannot relate to that part:
Actually, as addicts, engagement was simply something we never had to learn
I think there's also a big part that varies from person to person.
But as someone who feels like it is important to try and reflect on my thoughts, actions and such, I can only applaud your introspection. Again, very interesting!
 

jkkk

Well-Known Member
HumbleRich,

This is a very insightful post and thanks for sharing it with us!

Very good diagnosis on the addict's perspective, great comparison to healthy views.

One of the biggest challenges that I know I face is rewiring. Learning, from scratch, how to have a healthy sexuality. I was addicted years before having a gf, before having sex. I personally know that my sexuality is totally warped and all that you describe is absolutely my case.

Include heavy objectification of my wife. She is the love of my life. And yet I have a magnificent problem with objectification. On my part this issue is painful and wrenching for me, because my objectification turns also on negative points that is - in my objectifying addicted consciousness - particularly my wife's breast size.

It amazes how after so much reboot and effort this still is a problem for me. This shows just how humble I need to be towards my addiction. At a certain point in acting out I visited a lot of sites about breast augmentation, explaining to myself that this perfectly legit and normal. It is not. I wonder when will these thoughts go away. I really wish they would. They are a byproduct of my addiction and one of the few symptoms that I still feel and that really bothers me.

Yet I will not give up. I will fight this sh** to the end or I should rather say that I will LET myself be healed by abstaining from what I cannot control and doing the best in where I have control.

Thanks for sharing, once again. This was very spot on for me. If I could return you any favor, let me know.
 

Vincent

Active Member
very very accurate and helpful. Those insights I had as well, but you put them into the right words. Many thanks for that. It simply is true. We completely ignored our sexuality, the intrinsic one, and let it be driven by extrinsic sexual input from porn. So, when like 10 years ago I said that watching porn is to live out one's sexuality, the actual opposite was and is the case. Because then we experience somebody else's sexuality.

Thanks again
 

LTE

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
Great insights.

jkkk said:
HumbleRich,

This is a very insightful post and thanks for sharing it with us!

Very good diagnosis on the addict's perspective, great comparison to healthy views.

One of the biggest challenges that I know I face is rewiring. Learning, from scratch, how to have a healthy sexuality. I was addicted years before having a gf, before having sex. I personally know that my sexuality is totally warped and all that you describe is absolutely my case.

Include heavy objectification of my wife. She is the love of my life. And yet I have a magnificent problem with objectification. On my part this issue is painful and wrenching for me, because my objectification turns also on negative points that is - in my objectifying addicted consciousness - particularly my wife's breast size.

It amazes how after so much reboot and effort this still is a problem for me. This shows just how humble I need to be towards my addiction. At a certain point in acting out I visited a lot of sites about breast augmentation, explaining to myself that this perfectly legit and normal. It is not. I wonder when will these thoughts go away. I really wish they would. They are a byproduct of my addiction and one of the few symptoms that I still feel and that really bothers me.

Yet I will not give up. I will fight this sh** to the end or I should rather say that I will LET myself be healed by abstaining from what I cannot control and doing the best in where I have control.

Thanks for sharing, once again. This was very spot on for me. If I could return you any favor, let me know.
The progress continues over time. I'm closing in on 800 days and I still am breaking new ground.
 

Gracie

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
HR  that is a very good take on things.  It explains why, as women, even though our man ages we are not bothered so much by the changes that aging brings about in terms of physical attractiveness.  We are engaged with the whole person.  So a little or more weight here or there is not of concern to us.  Graying hair or loss of hair not a big deal.  For me, I love the sound of my husband's voice always have always will.  Just hearing him talk.  And that may explain why we are so blindsided by the whole porn thing.

JKKK what was it that you loved about your wife initially?  If porn was there before her, then your preference was there.  What does she or did she have that overcame that preference? 

Women want to be more than a sum total of our body parts.  My husband used to talk about the way I looked at 18 when he first saw me.  I wanted him to say when he sees me now I am amazing.  That is important to us.  To be attractive throughout our life span especially to our husbands.

For my husband and I, we had to reach back and talk about why we got married, what attracted us to one another, why and how did we enjoy being with each other.  We had to look at ourselves and find all those things again and bring them to the here and now.  An update to our computer system of love.

 

LTE

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
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Gracie said:
HR  that is a very good take on things.  It explains why, as women, even though our man ages we are not bothered so much by the changes that aging brings about in terms of physical attractiveness.  We are engaged with the whole person.  So a little or more weight here or there is not of concern to us.  Graying hair or loss of hair not a big deal.  For me, I love the sound of my husband's voice always have always will.  Just hearing him talk.  And that may explain why we are so blindsided by the whole porn thing.

JKKK what was it that you loved about your wife initially?  If porn was there before her, then your preference was there.  What does she or did she have that overcame that preference? 

Women want to be more than a sum total of our body parts.  My husband used to talk about the way I looked at 18 when he first saw me.  I wanted him to say when he sees me now I am amazing.  That is important to us.  To be attractive throughout our life span especially to our husbands.

For my husband and I, we had to reach back and talk about why we got married, what attracted us to one another, why and how did we enjoy being with each other.  We had to look at ourselves and find all those things again and bring them to the here and now.  An update to our computer system of love.
Our modern pop culture seems to work against the direction of goodness regarding all of this. If you take cues from the world of entertainment you would think that the physical is all that matters. People have forgotten what a gift it is to have others in our lives. Everyone that is part of my close circle is precious, but a mate is even more precious.
 

LTE

Administrator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
I may have locked this topic inadvertently. It's easy enough to do, just a single click that must've happened accidentally. In any event, I unlocked it and I apologize. It seems like a great topic and I'm not trying to inhibit it in any way.
 

jkkk

Well-Known Member
lte said:
The progress continues over time. I'm closing in on 800 days and I still am breaking new ground.

This is my hope, this is what I cling on to when I have doubts :)

Gracie said:
JKKK what was it that you loved about your wife initially?  If porn was there before her, then your preference was there.  What does she or did she have that overcame that preference? 

This is a very good question. It came to my mind recently.

The answer is: everything. She is an amazing person with a fantastic, strong character, a great companion, loving and caring.

I really feel ashamed at times when I admit to this objectification issue that I mentioned above. But I immediately tell myself I have nothing to be ashamed for here. This is what the addiction does to people, this is what it did to me. It warped my brain, it affected my thinking. This just a reminder to me that this not a cold to be shaken off in a week. I'm no bystander in that situation. I do a lot, but I also want to be patient, keep through the good things, stay away from acting out and triggers as much as possible and keep rewiring to her. And I see my way of thinking already changing, my wife and I we have so much a better connection now than just a year ago that it gives me hope in tackling other issues too. From the reading of other guy's here I see that is the road to success. So I just stay on it, I have hope.

Once I get there I want to say on it and constantly be en route to a healthy life. My experience from the past is that there is no end to reboot and recovery (I thought there is and I failed miserably). It's like the AA guys who keep on reporting for meetings after 20 years sober. Quite a lifetime program, so I prefer to concentrate on right here, right now :)
 

LTE

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Admin
Moderator
jkkk said:
lte said:
The progress continues over time. I'm closing in on 800 days and I still am breaking new ground.

This is my hope, this is what I cling on to when I have doubts :)
Early on in the game I realized that once the addiction was broken it would become easier overall. That isn't to suggest that I don't have the occasional rough moment, but they are much less common now than they used to be and I have built up a fund of experience in dealing with them. You will continue to see more benefits as time goes on. There's no end in sight; it just keeps getting better.
 

challenged

Active Member
I think this can sometimes be a complicated topic -- what exactly it means to "objectify" -- and that to some extent it is a topic as to which some of the nuances are not easily articulated to everyone's satisfaction.  It is probably one that could easily lead to misunderstandings.  Anyway, I have no doubt that porn can cause people to objectify others (both men and women).  This is no doubt a harmful consequence of porn, and to a large extent, many users have to "unlearn" the tendency to objectify members of the opposite sex (or the same sex).

But at the same time, it is natural for a man to appreciate and enjoy his wife's body and vice-versa.  The simple fact of enjoying your spouse's body, and desiring to look at it is not "objectifying" the person.  Read the Song of Solomon.  Do the man and woman "objectify" each other in the Song of Solomon?  I think not. Enjoying your spouse's body and desiring to look at it and admire it is a basic aspect of human sexuality that God gave us.

Thus, it seems to me that it is possible for a man to enjoy his wife's body and to wish to look at it and enjoy the view, without objectifying his wife.  And vice-versa.  So I don't agree that it is necessary to have only a fleeting glance of your spouse's body, and then you need to "look up."  My wife enjoys it when I gaze at and admire her body and I feel the same way when she does it to me.  We have been married 35+ years, and with all of what we have experienced together and how we relate to one another, there ain't no "objectifying" going on, folks.  But I certainly agree that if all you care about is the "body parts" and that is all the person means to you, or is primarily what they mean to you, then you have a problem that needs attention.  And, again, this is certainly one of the potential harms created by consumption of pornography.

So I certainly agree that we need to see other people as human beings and not just as a collection of body parts to satisfy us, and we need to overcome whatever porn has taught us in this regard, but it is possible to see and value your spouse as a whole person --- but still enjoy looking at them (and looking at them naked).

Anyway, I'm just throwing these thoughts out there, not as a rebuttal or disagreement with anything anybody has said thus far, but just as some thoughts to consider on this complicated topic.
 

Greg1994

Member
Great post. I know exactly what your talking about. Porn truly does warp your sexuality. I have a question about your HOCD. I too suffer from it but I've noticed a definite decrease in HOCD thoughts since starting my reboot. I'm about 25 days in and I've experienced other benefits as well. I was wondering if you still have HOCD thoughts at all? Or if you don't, when did they start going away? I'd appreciate your response and intake. Best of luck to you
 

Gracie

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Jkkk, I did not mean to make you feel ashamed.  I just meant that she attracted you just as she was and still is.  That says a lot.  That is what my husband and I did.  We had to go through and we actually listed the things that attracted us to one another.  And we got back to that attraction.  I am sorry if you thought I meant the comment in a bad way.
 

Doc

Active Member
Wow...this is a really fascinating and interesting topic and viewpoint. It makes so much sense.  As I read, I started thinking of how, when my Wife and I started dating 20 years ago, she was not my "type" at all.  As we dated, I found out that she was a virgin and I respected her for that to the point that I stopped all MO and had no porn during that time.  When I talk about her not being my type, I'm speaking of the physical.  I am a pretty tall guy and always went for tall blondes.  My wife is the antithesis of a tall blond but it was her genuine friendship and whole person that I fell in love with, not a body type.  As I fell down the porn rabbit hole of high speed internet, EVERYTHING became about objectifying women in general and her due to being closest and most available.  What an amazing insult I did to her and didn't even realize it when I was doing it.
I'm ranting right now because I'm still up at 2:30 in the morning.  Probably better to sign off for now and check back in tomorrow.
R
 

jkkk

Well-Known Member
Gracie said:
Jkkk, I did not mean to make you feel ashamed.  I just meant that she attracted you just as she was and still is.  That says a lot.  That is what my husband and I did.  We had to go through and we actually listed the things that attracted us to one another.  And we got back to that attraction.  I am sorry if you thought I meant the comment in a bad way.

Gracie, you didn't. Your comment, or rather question, just naturally goes to the root of the problem that concerns objectification and it does so rightly.

challenged said:
But at the same time, it is natural for a man to appreciate and enjoy his wife's body and vice-versa.  The simple fact of enjoying your spouse's body, and desiring to look at it is not "objectifying" the person.  Read the Song of Solomon.  Do the man and woman "objectify" each other in the Song of Solomon?  I think not. Enjoying your spouse's body and desiring to look at it and admire it is a basic aspect of human sexuality that God gave us.

But we are discussing a wholly different issue here.

What you write is about is the best, most wonderful attraction that there is between a woman and a man. This attraction is not disconnected from being a woman or a man, and the beauty in each sexes. This the point that all struggling with the addiction-induced mindset, which HumbleRich so accurately described, want to reach. If you are there already, or you never left this consciousness, good for you.

Do not take offence but I dare to say that this issue is more commonplace with the youngest guys here and it may, for some of guys here (and I'm very happy for all of you). The only sexual outlet I had between 10 y.o. and 22 y.o. was porn, and I know there a hundreds of guys like me around here. Again, my point is not to say we are "suffering more" but our road to recovery is way longer, as it has already been underlined by Gary Wilson and Gabe in many of their videos.

For now many of us what you describe between your wife and you is something really far away at the moment. I envy you, but I also hope, and I want, to get there one day :)
 

challenged

Active Member
jkkk said:
challenged said:
But at the same time, it is natural for a man to appreciate and enjoy his wife's body and vice-versa.  The simple fact of enjoying your spouse's body, and desiring to look at it is not "objectifying" the person.  Read the Song of Solomon.  Do the man and woman "objectify" each other in the Song of Solomon?  I think not. Enjoying your spouse's body and desiring to look at it and admire it is a basic aspect of human sexuality that God gave us.

But we are discussing a wholly different issue here.

What you write is about is the best, most wonderful attraction that there is between a woman and a man. This attraction is not disconnected from being a woman or a man, and the beauty in each sexes. This the point that all struggling with the addiction-induced mindset, which HumbleRich so accurately described, want to reach. If you are there already, or you never left this consciousness, good for you.

I'm not sure it is a wholly different issue, but as I said above, this is probably one of the instances where the "nuances" are not articulated to everyone's satisfaction.  A couple of thoughts to try to clarify:

First, when you say "if you are already there," I am a human being, and a man, I think it is natural for all of us men to struggle from time to time with the "objectification" issue.  It is natural for human beings (men and women) to struggle with lust.  I am by no means perfect, or immune to these struggles.  Therefore, I fully understand the struggles that people face in this area, and the tendency of all us to sometimes objectify women (or men) in the sexual context, or other human beings in other contexts.  And I understand how porn can increase the tendency to lust and "objectify."

That being said, I am just suggesting that we need to be careful not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater," so to speak -- even when we have struggled, or are struggling, with porn.  Sometimes I read comments that suggest that desiring to look at your wife's body, or asking her to wear something (e.g., lingerie or whatever), is "objectifying" her, and/or is necessarily a consequence of porn use.  I think that such things possibly could be evidence of, or associated with, a man objectifying his wife (or a wife objectifying her husband in the opposite case).  But they are also a part of normal, healthy human sexuality.

So I just suggesting that we be careful to identify the precise issue, in terms of how we tend to objectify a person.  It seems to me that the problem is when we fail to see our spouse as a whole person, or we disregard their personality or dignity in favor of what they can offer us sexually.  I don't think the problem is defined merely by the fact that we enjoy looking at his or her body, or that we like it when they wear something sexy for us.

That's all I was really saying.  :) 

(And, BTW, I agree that the problem if "objectification" is likely to be exacerbated in younger guys whose sexual experience has been dominated by internet porn).
 
H

HumbleRich

Guest
I have seen all of the responses and appreciate the discussion that has arisen.  I will respond after a few days of No PMO. 

Rich
 
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