Porn betrayal v. real life infidelity

I know we all have different ways of experiencing the betrayal from our partner's porn use. Some say it's an infidelity and others say it's not exactly a true infidelity, but it's still a betrayal and it still hurts. I saw it as "infidelity lite" I suppose, not because it doesn't hurt (it does) but because it it doesn't have the complications of a real life affair or real life sex encounters including emotional attachment, the planning of the meet ups, the meticulous deception on their part and/or the utter naive stupidity on our part that our partner would never do such a thing, STIs, pregnancy risks, and just the sheer extent of the betrayal, because infidelity doesn't just strike out of the blue. A lot of preparation, conscious or unconscious, goes into creating the conditions where it "just happened". I mean, even a massage parlour is never just "I was curious. I just walked in. I didn't really know what went on there".

I have a big problem weighing on my mind, since before d day if I'm honest. It's the suspicion of physical infidelity. I never suspected who or when or where. Even as I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking that there may have even been more than one infidelity situation.

Some aspects of his behavior were not on my radar. I used to believe in all that BS that I would intuitively know if anything was going on but I know that is not the case. I also discovered after d day how he could lie so easily and convincingly. The result is that I know that I've only ever had a slow trickle of partial discovery and minimal disclosure. Everything else would depend on his honesty and I don't believe he ever can be honest. I've always tried to draw a line under what I know and accept that I will never know the full story.

It's really difficult living this way. Whenever I asked about his fidelity I don't think I ever had a straight answer. From nervous laughter to moral outrage, from asking me to define what unfaithful means (as if he doesn't know what the word means!) to statements protesting his moral character, I never got a straightforward denial. I don't know what but I know he did something. A few of the women here have believed their partner's version of honesty only to find out there was more - and worse - to come.

The thing is, I don't know what to do. So do I make peace with my own mind because I KNOW that I won't learn anything from him? He will insist I know "everything" but we've all heard that one before. I mean, I did ? and it didn't turn out to be the case.

A lot went wrong in our relationship but I don't want to be living a lie. I'm torn. If I was to find out about something that went on, say that involved someone I was in good terms with, someone I never suspected, someone at his place of work, or whatever, then what? Even if it was a casual hookup, or "ships that pass in the night"', would the devastation be too great to deal with? Would I be kicking the hornet's nest? Would my determination to learn what was really going on drive us apart forever? Could I handle it?

It's a horrible feeling not knowing what the reality of my situation is? As I said, he could never give me a straight answer when I raised the matter. You know, why not just deny it if it didn't happen? Why the nervous laugh? Why parrot my question word for word? Why become outraged at my asking, especially after evading the question and stalling for time? I know a lie when I see one and hear one. But I can't prove anything. He knows these are matters he can only disclose and experience has taught me that he says nothing and denies everything if he can.

At the root of this is porn addiction. I believe it is the "gateway drug" for some. It puts a distance between people and there are so many opportunities that begin with an internet search. The bottom line is that I don't have any idea. Sometimes I think I'm crazy when I think this way, other times my gut tells me I'm right about something not quite adding up.

Its funny you just putting this topic up, I was just thinking of the innocence lost of our relationship, I believed in him, I trusted him I bloody thought he was awesome ha ha, then Bam crash, down it comes... I question him on the cam girl thing, he says no way never ever (eyes rolling here) even though I found cookies,  I believe its betrayal, bit like you, its not a deal breaker like it would be if another women physically and all the planning of meeting etc, but I have been combating a mistress, one that is a go anywhere type of girl being that his phone was never far from his side.  Just lately I asked about a lie detector, I just wanted to see his reaction, he said Yep go for it, I think he was calling my bluff, to be honest I truly cant be bothered and plus I would have to work out questions etc and then tell some complete strangers about all our personal shit.  I try and just believe, I try and believe on a daily basis that he is changing, I try and believe that he wont go there again, that he understands the pain that I have been in and the loss of something in our relationship that can not be recovered, if ever again. As you know he told me I had let myself go, that has been a big barrier with the recovery, I cant help but slip that comment on a regular basis, that hurt real bad, I have not recovered  from that.  I know it was part of his conditioning of gorgeous size 6 girls young and perfect...  I think trust your gut, the problem is with Liars, they will do say anything to hide. I have read out stories on kidnapping young girls and forcing them to act out in porn movies, I have pointed out so much to him about what is completely wrong with the Porn Picture...

Whatever was going on over the years, it was betrayal of my trust and my unquestioning faith in him. One of the most hurtful aspects of his porn use was that he just carried on and protected his habit by getting better at avoiding detection. For me, no evidence meant I had no power and no say. What's worse was that before d day he even said I could look on his computer if I wanted and that I wouldn't find anything interesting on it anyway. But of course that was entirely misleading. For start, he knew I wouldn't snoop in the first place, and besides, most of what he watched was streaming video and he had everything set up to delete all traces of internet activity. It was a statement about how confident he was in his anti-detection strategies.

Kimba, for your husband to say that about you "letting yourself go".... sigh .... it's always "our" fault, isn't it? My husband tried to tell me that I had lost interest in him, but the reality was that whenever I'd planned ahead for a romantic/sexy evening or weekend he'd already have been on the porn sites and be all wanked out. And then I'd be turned down because he'd be "too tired". The truth was he was the one showing no interest. No compliments, hardly any physical contact, admiring glances, nothing. I didn't need him to tell me I'd "let myself go" in words, he did that through his actions (or lack of). But the reality was, I had not "let myself go". I might have been older but I was still the same size and shape I'd always been. I expected a mature man would be able to recognise the glaringly obvious fact that we all grow older. Him included. Whilst he was using porn he imagined himself as some young hip go-getter, not the midlife joke he was in danger of becoming.

As part of my recovery, I have refused to accept that I am less valuable just because I'm older. I am not diminished by age. My voice should not be silenced because I'm older. I've had more life experience and if anything I've got more to say, not less. I also realised that my silence was exactly what he wanted. He tried to shut me up became no evidence meant no voice, now power, no say. But... no more!

It almost always comes down to the woman being blamed for being either not available for sex, or not physically attractive enough. And I ain't buying it. I've seen the same old excuses played out in almost every account of sex and porn addiction. The lack of sex because of advanced stages of pregnancy or post childbirth complications, looking after little kids, illness, menopause, emotional upsets, and it's always "I didn't want to put more demands on you" or "I didn't want to cause you pain" (physical pain, that is).

Although we get to hear "it's not personal" over and over, you'll read here and there online a guy saying their wife is overweight or over eating, and I've even read one man berate his wife for wearing cosy PJs instead of sexy lingerie, and if she'd have bought lingerie instead, he wouldn't have had to use porn! Or that they'll never do it "doggie style". I absolutely hate porn for this pollution that rots something that should be beautiful and intimate, not a circus performance. Are we seriously rating ourselves through the gaze of an imaginary male audience? Who is to judge anyway? If we buy into that mindset we're sunk.

There is no way we should accept responsibility on these accounts. I can accept a certain responsibility for my situation in the sense that I could have been more assertive; I could have pulled the plug on the internet connection but I didn't think I had the authority; I could have said I do not want porn in my home, but I also felt there wasn't unspoken emotional blackmail going on, that if he could not have porn he would seek out something else. I also knew from experience that if I raised the matter I would meet hostility and anger, and that if I had made any discoveries on his devices I would have been told that I had no right to look. I was effectively disempowered, and that my disempowerment was necessary for him to protect his habit, just as the lies, deception and his evasiveness was.

This also left a huge scope for all kinds of things to go undetected. Whether there was more, I don't know. But I believe there was. In many ways he created the excuses that gave him permission to act as he did. I guess I am shocked at the scale of the manipulation that was necessary for him to pursue his behavior.

The worst part of all is that I feel that there is no way back from the dishonesty. It's the coming to terms with someone who lies automatically and by default. I don't believe that anyone goes from being a person capable of years of deception to someone who is honest and trustworthy overnight. He has had decades of perfecting the art of deception.

Therapeutic disclosure - with a polygraph, was honestly the best decision I made in all of this entire mess. At least I know that I finally have truth and I get to make good, appropriate decisions for my own life.

Was it painful? Absolutely - one of the hardest things I have ever experienced.

Did I find out things that crushed me soul at the time? Absolutely, I sat there looking at him and wondering what the hell went wrong in our relationship. This man was my knight in shining armor, this man was the most moral, gentle, kind, loving man I ever met in my life - or so I thought. But, I would rather have both my eyes open and deal with reality, than continue to join him in his fantasy world.

Full disclosure was also good for him as well. A big block to his truly moving completely forward was he knew there were still some lies between us, things he knew I 'should' know, but didn't. Guilt leads to shame, shame lead to hiding, and in the shadows is where porn is sitting there lurking and waiting to grab once again.

I cannot stress enough - get truth; all of the truth. I have seen people post here about thinking they don't need to know everything, they just forgive and are ready to move on. How can you forgive when you don't even know what you are forgiving?

The other thing is that is forces you to come out from denial that your man is a "unicorn", the only man who was addicted to porn for years that didn't progress into other areas. The only man addicted to porn who never stepped outside the lines, who only looked at only the "good porn".

When you see how far they fell, how deeply that got into porn/sex addiction - it also helps you better understand the true timeline needed for recovery. If you think they only dipped a 'little', then you assume recovery is going to be relatively quick and easy. When you face the entire ugly truth, you see why recovery won't be months, but years. It helps you better understand just how significant to barriers have to be and why triggers need to be known and just how much of a minefield has to be navigated.

The entire truth lets you see just how much porn addiction changed your husband, how much is got a hold of his mind, and how much of a victory it is for him as he goes on in his recovery. So much was taken from us when our partners became addicts, there is so little they can truly "give" us, truth is one of those things. You deserve it, you should have it. Only then are you honestly and authentically deciding for yourself what you want in the relationship.

I completely agree with Just_Keep_Swimming, I don't see any difference in viewing P or having a physical affair. One may need more preparation and a physical person and the other is technology but that doesn't change what it does. I believe saying that it isn't a "true infidelity" is just trying to comfort themselves in thinking that what they did isn't as bad as a physical affair and that would be denial. I know that as an addict I once felt that way before I was in recovery. I desperately wanted to believe I wasn't as bad as someone who cheats with another person. But in reality it's just as bad if not worse. I have lied in the same way, saying "that's everything I swear" until she finds more. That happened at least eight times with some that were bigger than others.

Early in our relationship my partner noticed things like what I would like on Instagram and pictures I had on my phone and even I said "oh everyone does it, it's not a big deal" which is complete crap. Yes, most guys I know do it but that in no way makes it right. I take all responsibility in what I did and it's no ones fault but my own. I, as an addict in recovery want to say that is has never, is never and will never be your fault. If your partner ever blames you or makes an excuse to why they went to P, than they are just trying to make themselves feel better about what they did. There is no excuse and no justifying this. It sickens me to hear from my partner what I did. I have had this addiction for over a decade so I don't have memories of a time without P since my memory gets extremely spotty with anything before high school. My whole life of what I can remember, I have been repressing feelings and not feeling my emotions. I would never cry, I even truly thought that my parents divorce did nothing to effect me and that I had a good relationship with my mom and somehow my siblings didn't when really she was and always has been selfish and only calls/texts when she needs me and hardly, if ever asks how I am or how I've been. So through recovery I've gotten better but I still wasn't feeling everything. Last week, we were talking as we have been much more now which is really helping, she told me about something I had done early in our relationship and and other things like it that I had done and I could not remember the physical memory but all the feelings and emotions of what I did came rushing back and I broke down. Since then I have been feeling so much more. Every time I hear about what other addicts say and how they act is absolutely awful and disgusting. Knowing that I did the same things horrifies me and I will never be able to repay my partner or thank her enough for staying with me and helping me through all of this. The only thing I can do is be the best partner she's ever had for the rest of her life and into marriage and on until we die and that won't even be enough.

I can also say that when a partner gets upset when you go through their stuff, they are hiding something. No matter the situation there is no reason to hide anything from your partner. A couple could be the most faithful people in the world to each other and they still deserve full 100% access to each others lives, phones, emails and accounts of any kind. If there was nothing to hide then there wouldn't be a problem. My partner has never done anything wrong and she still doesn't hide anything from me. She lets me see any account, history of anything if I want to. That's how it should be whether or not there was betrayal. Also I believe infidelity isn't just a physical affair, it is any occasion where there has been betrayal of trust in any way. My partner, because of past traumas, hates a specific car. She has said she hates it, that it triggers her and that if I ever look it up, ride/drive one or anything that it will hurt her. If I went behind her back and rented one on a race track every weekend, then that is just as much an infidelity as viewing P. She would tell me how bad it makes her feel and if I purposely did it behind her back, then that is cheating and a blatant, purposeful betrayal of trust. Don't ever feel bad because you want to "snoop" through there things. They've been the ones snooping around creating the mistrust in the first place. You have every right to go through there things no matter what they have or haven't done. Partners should always be transparent.

Sorry to ramble on so much, I just think that there is no excuse for any of this behavior and there is no one and nothing to blame but ourselves. This addiction is never your fault nor anyone else's. Nothing you have done has caused any of this. Nothing my partner has ever done, has caused any infidelities. That is all on me and I want to say that I believe that that is the case for anyone else no matter what anyone says may be the reason.

Emerald Blue said:

I'm confused

Click to expand...

You seem a bit stuck on differences between men and women. On a base level, men desire youth, certain physical characteristic, and having as many partners as possible. All of this is for the purpose of having as many healthy offspring as possible. Men don't sexually/physically desire overweight women, or older women due to the possibility of complications in pregnancy, and they don't desire sexual monogamy, due to lowered chances of healthy offspring.
Women on the other hand are looking for that long term commitment, a protector and provider while we are raising children. We just don't care as much about physical appearance or age, unless they are life threateningly obese or frail/senile.

We are dealt different hands, youth and beauty given a higher role of importance in women than in men.
This is why the sexes comprehend love and sex differently, and why there is often a conflict of interest present in long term monogamous relationships. He doesn't "love" you any less, he's just fighting nature to try and make your nature work for him. A lot of men turn to porn thinking it is the lesser of 2 evils/not really infidelity, a last ditch effort to try and conform to what is in your best interests as a woman.

None of this excuses his continued dishonesty, but it might be the unpleasant truth you need to move on, with or without him.
We can't change what men are, we just need to take them or leave them deciding how much we are willing to sacrifice our nature for them, with the understanding that some of them are better at curbing there desires/sacrificing for us than others.

You really are an idiot, aren't you? And a pretty clueless one at that. And stop pretending to be a "woman" FFS. You're fooling nobody.

Yeah sure, we get all what's it's like to be young and female. We've all had that experience. But what you thicko eejits don't get that WE get to choose our mate from a pretty big selection and we don't choose ugly, overweight, balding retards. Hence the reason why I only had sex with handsome men, intelligent men, men with a full head of hair, men with athletic bodies. There's was plenty of fat, wrinkly, balding men who I wound never have "mated" with in a million years. Was I going to have their ugly obese stupid babies? No fucking way. I like good looking men with a good education, good manners and good breeding. Not some pizza munching, beer swilling moron that plays video games all day ? who are usually the very ones talking about spreading their genes. Spreading their fat stinking lazy asses and "fertilising" into Kleenex, more like.

Of course, being a "woman" you'll know all about being creeped out by ugly old pervs, won't you? Or do you look at them with your "empathy" and think "oh, poor little caveman, he's only trying to spread his genes, I'll give him a coy little smile and then he can follow me around the store". If you were a normal "woman" of course you'd want to either laugh at the guy, throw up or run.

You see, we know all about selecting a mate. And you know what happens to men when they get older? They go to seed. Yes, that's right. The "let themselves go" and they don't look that attractive to any woman.

And do you seriously believe that women over a certain age don't notice good looking men? Don't have a sex drive? Don't enjoy being chatted up by a handsome stranger? And do you honestly believe younger men aren't interested? Because I can tell you that the middle aged woman does not go short of opportunity at an age when suddenly there's all these divorced men becoming available and looking for a new relationship. Plus there's the younger guys who appreciate a beautiful woman at any age. So we still get to pick and choose, and handsome and intelligent and good manners and a good education will always win over slobby pizza boy. But then, you would know all about it because you're a "woman".

JKS, you are awesome! I agree 100%!

Emerald Blue said:

Still woefully confused

Click to expand...

Umm I think you missed the point here sweetie ;D
I am aware of my own female nature yes. I too seek out men who will bring something of equal value to the relationship.
Why do you admit that female sexual nature is also woefully shallow, but you seem to have trouble grasping that male sexual nature is just as shallow?
You are stuck in the same old loop Emery, your husband lied and seeks out younger women and probably continues to do so, while you just can't fathom why he would do such a thing

Tell me, what is it you have to offer this sexy, wealthy, well educated man you have reeled in? Why is it so difficult to understand that it doesn't matter how hot or young you are, a man will eventually grow sexually bored of you over the years?
It seems to be equally perplexing to you that your old age accelerates this phenomenon. Your man lied and cheated, and that's not your fault, but it can be a valuable lesson in the incompatibilities of men and women in long term sexual relationships  

I agree!  Many men hold many potential babies in their hand and have said they have this drive to fertilze women.  Ha!  Or they wash them down the drain.  I had a friend once that made her sons wash the tub after every shower because she wasn't going to clean up their babies.  Lol

Just_keep_swimming said:

"she" has apparently left according to "her" post in the porn addiction section.

That whole post above of hers just smacks of rape apologist shit, men can't control themselves, blah blah blah. Honestly it's more insulting to men than it is to women.

And plus if men are really that incapable and that much not wanting to mate for life then they should stop taking marriage vows and be upfront about it.

Also my husband used porn when he was banging a hot 21 year old, aka me, so it's total bullshit anyway. And like you say jizzing into a tissue is hardly an attempt to fertilize lots of women, unless you're trying to make some sort of human toilet paper hybrid offspring lol

Click to expand...

Odd, I don't see anything about rape or men not controlling themselves? There does seem to be quite a bit of valuable info about male nature and a man's inclination to seek out any (consensual) opportunities for sex that are available to him.

Men are walking away from marriage in droves sweetie Read a news article once in awhile.
Sure, why not watch porn and bang you at the same time, it's called having his cake and eating it too. Now that you aren't such a taught young string anymore I bet porn has become a little more enticing to him no?

Gracie said:

I agree!  Many men hold many potential babies in their hand and have said they have this drive to fertilze women.  Ha!  Or they wash them down the drain.  I had a friend once that made her sons wash the tub after every shower because she wasn't going to clean up their babies.  Lol

Click to expand...

: It's the biological/subconscious drive that leads to watching porn and masturbating. Surely you can understand the sexual center of the brain doesn't actually know what the rational brain knows? It doesn't know the difference between a vagina and a hand.

I forgot my password and I'm automatically signed in at work. I didn't want to wait till tomorrow. I just have to say that all  I hear coming from you is ignorance, do you speak coherent english? Did you look up an article on cave men or the history of apes before they evolved? Men and women comprehend sexuality differently because places like Victorias Secret thinks it's necessary to have their models posted everywhere and because society sexualizes and objectifies women. It is absolutely not because it's "in their nature" or any stupid reason like that. Men are shown at an early age that it is ok to objectify women and most boys grow up with that mindset these days. Because of this, and the way society portrays things, some women try very hard to be the best looking person in the room and see how many guys check them out or hit on them. This is because of how society is shaping the generations. This is not a pre-programmed mindset. Yes, primordially creatures of sexual nature (species that are not asexual) it is in the genes to want to produce the best offspring and the most so that they can have a higher chance of living and continuing to spread their genes. Unless you just read "On The Origin of Species" than I don't know where you got this darwinistic crap, this is the 21st century and we are a little more advanced than gene spreading sex obsessed creatures. We have advanced brains that can feel emotion and think for themselves and question instinct. And yes the brain doesn't know whether you're getting lucky on the first date or getting lucky with your "right hand man" but that does not mean that it is the "biological/subconscious drive" that leads to watching porn. I discovered porn but did not get immediately addicted. From what I remember (which isn't much) I got addicted sometime soon after my parents got divorced when I was around 11. So there was no "subconscious" instinct telling me to watch porn, I was in pain and didn't know it so my brain told me to do the one thing that i knew was a way to feel better quickly. Evolution has brought us far past mindless small brained creatures that blindly follow instinct.

Also you're being a d***.

You are stuck in the same old loop Emery, your husband lied and seeks out younger women and probably continues to do so, while you just can't fathom why he would do such a thing

Click to expand...

Now that you aren't such a taught young string anymore I bet porn has become a little more enticing to him no?

Click to expand...

Are you kidding me? You sound like an addict so stop pretending you're a partner or a women for that matter. Those are personal attacks and not allowed on the forum. These partners need support, and that is the complete opposite. Do not make statements that make it seem like their husbands don't want them or love them because that is just cruel. We addicts struggle but that has nothing to do with the love, attraction, and commitment we have to them. I would choose my partner over porn or anything any day. My addiction was never about her, the way she is or how she looked. I was a troubled kid and got sucked in early. Even if I hadn't it wouldn't have been anything about her.

Also again think before you post because your points are so far off you should tell Elon Musk so he can send a rocket to mars and go get them.

This guy is such a joke, isn't "she"? In fact "she" is so in touch with "her" innate "female nature" that "she" was advocating empathy for paedos. Yeah, what a great "mother" you're going to be.

"She" sets himself up as the marriage and relationship expert now, when he's just some poor dumbfuck glued to screen putting on weight jerking off to porn.

BTW, Jedi, there is nothing that this poor excuse of a fake "woman" can say that affects me. He's quite ludicrous really.

Glad to hear, I'm happy that you guys don't let some pointless plum sack get to you with his/her ignorance.

Emerald: I am so glad to read that the troll's posts are not hurting you. I would be so sad if you were re-victimized by this troll.

As they say, karma is a bitch. And karma is not divine retribution- it is the natural outcome of how a person lives their life. As a Buddhist I believe that this human life is a precious rebirth in the process of reincarnation. Those who squander it are dooming themselves not to hell, but to a rebirth as an even lower life form.

And karma doesn't always wait until the next lifetime to set things right!

OMG that ol spread my seed mentality haha what rock did he slide out from, umm think we evolved from the Cave  :-\

Real Men Love Real Women of course there are always ur shallow types or when young etc but I think most men know that when they are ready to settle with the right person they are ready in all aspects of a REAL relationship... love u guys xo

BuddhaAwake (and others), thanks for your support.

No, not retraumatized in the slightest. I agree, karma and all that. But ultimately he's just like one of those annoying songs on the radio. You just switch off.