1. Make eye contact with the girls you see. You can look away first, but it's even better if you wait until she does.2. Make eye contact and then smile. If you do this, I'd advise you work on a non-creepy smile in front of the mirror. Get comfortable with the natural one you get when you see someone you're friends with, or something you like, etc.3. Make eye contact, smile, then say 'hi'.
Quote from: Death Trap on March 19, 2017, 04:19:40 PM1. Make eye contact with the girls you see. You can look away first, but it's even better if you wait until she does.2. Make eye contact and then smile. If you do this, I'd advise you work on a non-creepy smile in front of the mirror. Get comfortable with the natural one you get when you see someone you're friends with, or something you like, etc.3. Make eye contact, smile, then say 'hi'. In regards to this smiling stuff. It actually really works. haha when it comes to smiling (unless you know what you're doing) LESS IS MORE! lol Lets not even call it smiling yet... call it a smirk. Look at a woman, if she looks back give a little smirk... if she brightens up, then you can go bigger with your smile. It's actually a lot of fun If she looks away, then looks back and smiles again... psh easiest thing in the world go up and say hi.
@LongRebooter: I agree with all of your bullet point observations, and think that they are all very important. I could probably write pages on each one, but since I wholeheartedly agree with them, I won't bother (others might want to dig in a bit). I read your reddit post, but haven't read all the replies yet. I wanted to ask about a couple of things: 1. You've been 3.5 years without porn, that is amazing. You say you've been 2.5 doing nofap, and are still a virgin--does that mean you haven't had an orgasm (outside of nocturnal emissions, probably) in that time period? 2. With regard to your appearance: would you say that you look the best that you could? Are you groomed the best you can be; are your clothes the best they could be; are you in decent physical shape? Obviously, this is not the most important thing, and in no way a deal breaker (think of the thousands of mediocre guys you've seen in your life with beautiful girls)--but it does seem to give a bit of an edge. 3. Do girls/women you see sometimes give you the verbal cues that they'd like you to approach them? Do they make long eye contact; smile; those types of things? 4. Could you, right now, walk up to an unattractive girl you don't know and ask for directions? If so, could you go up to her and start a conversation (even if rehearsed)? What about the first question with regard to an attractive girl (I assume you couldn't do it with regard to starting a conversation)? I'm not personally into online dating, but I'd say that if it's something you feel comfortable doing, then it's definitely a good way to develop comfort dealing with women. I'll get back to you after I hear what you have to say on my questions.
LongRebooter,I read your reddit thread and I know you said you don't have a problem with the dishonesty of dating a woman you don't like, but if you think it's dishonest it will hurt your chances and I think there's no need to think of it that way. What I would recommend is being open to the idea that you will become attracted to the woman, although there is little physical chemistry (I think this is true of you from what you've said). Then, if she asks if you like her, you can tell the truth and say something like:"Well, i'm not sure right now, but I like to give girls a chance to see if chemistry builds over a few dates before deciding if I want to take things further or not. I guess you could say i'm an optimist and i'm hoping we'll get to like each other!".I'm not recommending specific words, just that you can be honest and admit your waiting to see if chemistry will build slowly, based on personality. That way, you don't have to tell her she's stunning, though I do think you should choose women who you think look fairly good and tell them they look good to you (personally I think overweight women who take care of their appearance can still look good, for example), but you can be honest with her and tell her the things you actually do like about her, such as accomplishments, personality characteristics or whatever and that you're waiting to see if chemistry builds....
Answering your questions...1. I have had orgasms. I went to prostitutes on a number of occasions, where I had orgasms from handjobs and blowjobs. In fact it felt like a huge victory at the time, first ever orgasms with a girl. Still was unable to have PIV sex. Last time I went was over a year ago. Since then I consider it a dead end, and I've made it a rule to not pay for sex, so I don't consider it an option anymore. Yes, I do have regular wet dreams, on average about 3 times a month.
2. Yes, I believe my clothes are good enough. Before nofap I used to really not care. I had like one pair of jeans, and one tatty jumper, and I wore those all the time. Now I have a number of items which I can vary, they are recent, and in good condition. "Best they could be" can be argued, actually you made me thinking now... I'm not completely sure about the style. I mean I look just as good as anyone on the street if not better, and I can easily blend in. It might be worth it to move it up a notch however, and aim for more classy clothes. I.e. try to convey that I'm a higher social class. The problems with this are 1) It'd be a disproportionately bigger investment, especially for me, because I'm so tall that regular size clothes rarely fit me. And I'm entirely not convinced that my clothes are the 'bottleneck' that my success depends on. 2) It wouldn't be truly my style at the moment, I'm not sure I'd be absolutely comfortable wearing them.In regards to my physical appearance, I have my own body image issues, but I do take care of my appearance. I lift, and jog regularly, cut my nails, hair, nose hair, I shave/groom my stubble etc. On the negative side, I'm the ectomorph type (tall and thin), so I have my limits even if I lift, I'm balding etc.
3. Definitely not verbal cues, they don't strike up conversations with me for example. But once in a while I notice girls noticing me, e.g. she looks at me, looks away, then a minute later I catch her eye again, and then that's it. Or you're standing in a line, you're checking out the girl in front of you, she notices, and there's a difference between her putting her headphones in and turning her back on you, and her staying in an inviting/friendly position. These are very subtle, and may as well be just my imagination, but I tend to think that these are all missed opportunities.
4. I could definitely ask anyone for directions if I was genuinely lost, attractive or unattractive. However as soon as it's a planned approach, I'd be really nervous. I tried to do cold approaches in the past. 'Daygame' as the PUAs call it. When you walk up to random girls on the street and start talking to them during daytime. The extremity of the experience is difficult to describe, but I was able to do it. Also, it was more than a year ago, some things has changed since the, maybe I should try it again.
In regards to your comments about 'exposure therapy', here is what I think.This may work, and could be a good approach. I think the crucial bit is to define the right 'steps', and constantly challenge yourself. This can be tricky, because you may find that you can get comfortable standing next to girls, but you just can't get yourself to talk to them. Then how do you proceed?Or you can find that you can talk to them, but can't get comfortable with it, then what do you do?My own experience with this was as follows. My first baby step was to walk up to a girl, and say "Hi". I told myself I don't care what happens after that, they may hit me, I may run, I may just keep walking like a weirdo, the world may end, but I'm gonna walk up to someone, and say "Hi". It was very hard. Then I realised that nothing bad happened.I kept working on the project up to a point, where I was able to make 10-20 minute long sensible conversations with complete strangers, and less attractive women. And I could walk up to attractive women, and have brief, few minutes conversations with them. Sure, some of them were really awkward, but some of them were just nice rejections without the awkwardness, but I could do it.Then I realised that I was living in a shared apartment, in a room the size of which was a joke, with roommates that I hated and didn't get along with at all, I had a job that I very much started to hate, and my life was a mess.I started to think "Why the fuck am I doing this? What if I found a girl? Where would I take her? Would I be any happier if I found a girl anyway?" So I abandoned the project, and started to take care of issues that should have been taken care of long long time ago, and the next phase of my life started which spans about 1.5-2 years so far. I'm still in this phase at the current day. And the best worst part is that I'm still nowhere near where I want to be.But back to the cold approach thing. Another thing that comes to my mind is that it's a useful exercise, it doesn't matter if you fail. I'll go even further. The goal should be not to have success, but to go out there and fail. (I've read it somewhere, and often this was the attitude I was trying to have.) Even if you believe you won't pick up any girls this way, it may still be worth doing. It builds character, builds confidence, it's such an ego boost, it'll give you a lot of benefits anyway.It's just such an effort... Can be really tiring mentally.
you may find that you can get comfortable standing next to girls, but you just can't get yourself to talk to them. Then how do you proceed?
@Death TrapYou seem to be very organised, this is great.On the sex with prostitutes, and being unable to have PIV sex... PIV requires a stable erection. You get erect, put the condom on, fiddle around, and manage to penetrate, and do all this while still staying erect. For me it was very fragile. She started giving me oral or a handjob, and the first couple of times I just told them to keep going until I'm finished, because I was so worried that it can be gone any minute. Success. Then one time I thought ok, let's try to put a condom on, and as I expected, it was gone. She couldn't even finish me with her hands after that. Mind you, it was a different girl every time. This was for multiple reasons. One, I was to embarrassed to go back to the same one. Two, I didn't really like any of them. I mean they looked stunning and young and all, but it was awkward, there was zero connection, the clock was ticking, and non of these helped my case. If money wasn't an issue, I may still visit them from time to time, or maybe hire some higher class escorts with whom it's a much better experience I guess. But then again, the amount of time you'd need to spend with them in order to get comfortable, and the price of that may still not be worth it, who knows. And it may still not be a solution on the long run, because you'd still be living in fantasy world.On ruminating over failures... I'm the same. But I think I have improved a lot since I've stopped masturbating. Even though I think I'm still more sensitive than I should be, I get over failures much easier now. Same is true for causing people discomfort, or standing up for myself. I used to be a real wuss, but I handle such situations a bit better now.On cold approaches, and my plans... I have an exam coming up in May, so I may put this whole 'getting a girlfriend' project on hold until that is over, because it really distracts me, and I don't want to fail the exam. I'll see how it goes, but I won't be able to keep any short deadlines. (I'll probably need to stop visiting the forum too for a little while, I'm starting to spend to much time here too.)I would say I'll definitely do at least one cold approach session, but possibly more till the end of June. I'll have to start from saying "hi" and run, then saying "hi" and don't run, saying "hi" and saying something else, and so on...Another goal could be to go on a date with someone till the end of June with no rules for where I've met the girl, and how I like her prior to the date. She could be from an online dating site, a friend of a friend, or someone I've met on the street, doesn't matter. The point is to go on a date, in other words spend time with her one on one.I think these are concrete enough, and achievable as well.For bonus points: Approach a girl or ask for contact details spontaneously, unprepared, on a random day, at a random place. I.e. not during a cold approach session. - This is hard, and not very specific either, so I wouldn't put a deadline on it just yet.
Regarding the 'goal is to fail' idea... It's really fascinating indeed. You go out and tell yourself, "ok, I'm going to put myself in this situation, and my goal is to fail", no problem you do the thing, and you notice that in fact you did quite well. Then you go and do the exact same thing except you tell yourself "ok, now I'll try to get xyz result", and all of a sudden everything becomes awkward and very hard. Nothing has changed except your attitude, and just because of that, your experience is completely different.
True enough, it's the secret that they don't tell you about dating, men are more often than not expected to initiate. It would be nice if more women showed a little more initiative, but there's no point whining about it. Confidence is a key trait of masculinity, and without it we turn to porn We are men, and there's no point in avoiding positive masculine traits.
I just want to say that I commend all of you on this thread. I think you are all on the right track and the things you are listing are spot on from making eye contact to focusing on a relationship rather than just trying to have sex. I would add that if you do take a chance (which I know can be scary) and you get shot down do get frustrated. She is probably not someone you want to waste your time on anyway. Keep going, smile and stay positive. Confidence, a positive attitude, honesty, humility, and authenticity are the main things most women are attracted to...maybe a sense of humor too, lol. Keep it up guys, you are on the right track for sure!
Quote from: Robert1 on March 20, 2017, 07:11:24 PMTrue enough, it's the secret that they don't tell you about dating, men are more often than not expected to initiate. It would be nice if more women showed a little more initiative, but there's no point whining about it. Confidence is a key trait of masculinity, and without it we turn to porn We are men, and there's no point in avoiding positive masculine traits.It's interesting because I watched a YouTube video by The Hodge Twins about this recently. They mentioned the double standard, but then went off on a tangent about the myth that men want sex more than women. I think what they were going to say about the double standard was this:In society, there is a double standard when it comes to dating. A man who sleeps with lots of women is called a stud or a player (which can be a compliment when said from one young man to another) whereas a young woman is called a slut or even a whore. Therefore, a man who makes lots of approaches is seen as enviable and confident, whereas a woman who does the same is seen as a slut. Thus it's hard for women to make approaches because it's pretty much taboo - they may well get looked down upon for doing that due to the double standard. I think this is a big part of why women don't make approaches more often despite believing in equality and such like. I also think many women prefer if the man makes the approach because they just like it, it shows confidence which they like and they like to play "the female role" and expect the man to "play the male role" because it's romantic.Aquarius25, Thanks for posting. It's useful to have a female perspective on a thread like this because guys like myself with little experience with women often make mistakes in areas like this because we lack experience. For example, male dating coaches, who are usually PUA's, will typically say "ANY situation in which you see a woman but believe you shouldn't or can't approach is just a limiting belief". I disagree. PUA's would say that if she's got headphones in or she's on the phone or she's out jogging, or she's out jogging with headphones in that are connected to the phone she's on, you can and should still approach and try to chat her up. I suspect that some PUA's have successfully gotten numbers or whatever in situations like this and that is all they need to convince themselves that the approach is acceptable. However, I prefer to follow social convention more and accept that if she's got headphones in she likely doesn't want to be bothered so I won't.At a younger age I believed them, so I thought I was "supposed" to chat up women who had headphones in or whatever and that I was weak if I didn't. This is the sort of thing that it's useful to have a female perspective on sometimes. If you would wonder why I would believe them, then bear in mind that PUA's can be very persuasive and typically sound very sure of themselves about pretty much everything.