*SOS* During hard flatline-to kiss/cuddle with girls, or leave it all alone?!

vak88

Member
Hey guys. Thank you all for the existence of this forum!

I'm currently in a flatline (I was feeling VERY horny after a long reboot, but had too much sex too soon). (3-4 times a night with different girls 4 days in a row. No orgasm, but edging very hard which amounts to the same thing in my opinion, i feel like I "fried my brain", same feeling i used to get after long edging sessions.) This spiraled me into flatline again.

What is more productive?!

(option a) Hardmode, no touching, kissing, playing around with girls until there's stronger natural erections / desire to do so, and then gradually re-introduce? (Logic - if you're doing that and you're deep in flatline, you kinda feel some anxiety and your dopamine crashes even further.)

(option b) Hardmore, but also some light touching / kissing, and setting the expectation that you're not going to have sex, despite being in a hard flatline? (Logic - it's helpful to touch girls)

Also, I wonder if it makes sense to avoid seeking the company of many new women on a regular basis, to stop that "novelty seeking" pattern we're all too familiar with. It's relatively easy for me to meet new girls, I wonder if it makes sense to stop that for a while and just spend time with a few or 1 of the regulars (again, no PMO-ing, but in some capacity).

Guys, thanks for taking the time to read this. I've seen many inspirational stories here, and many great minds commenting and giving helpful advice =)


**Additional context ***

28, I quit porn many 3 years ago, and haven't MOd or watched porn since (and even recently deleted IG because it's too much like porn ha). It feels like i've been stuck in a rut though. I experienced total recovery, but then went back to no porn  but edging / masturbation, which sent me back to flatline after edging really hard for a longg time (guess my brain was just overwhelmed and pulled the plug). I didn't know that edging was bad for you (and by the way, I started porn when I was pretty young, so i'm pretty sure the (edging = bad) connection has to do with my brain's associating it with all the porn use, not just in and of itself). Also, I noticed that when I was having too much sex too fast, it would again send my into flatline. But more than anything it was the edging with no porn-use that did that.

Most recently, what sent me back was "edging" but with girls (what started off as Karezza, turned into edging)... again, did it wayyy too much, wayyyy too soon. I think if I had just taken it easier, it would have been OK. So now, I'm committed to just slowing things down, not edging (focusing more on Karezza, sharing intimacy and not even thinking of orgasm), not constantly seeking out new partners, and living other parts of my life to the fullest. It's been really frustrating to essentially "fully recover" and then again go back into flatline. The plus though, I've seen the other side in all it's mighty glory - (what feels like full recovery), and boys, it is a beautiful place to be. Good luck everybody! Thanks again for the time.
 

malando

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
My advice: no more 4 girls in 4 nights. That is basically like watching porn in terms of overstimulation. It's unsustainable and likely to awaken porn style fantasies and thinking. Stop the karezza nonsense. It's not a natural way to have sex. It's a human distortion applied to sex that prolongs it beyond a healthy timespan, and denies the natural release of orgasm. It's edging: overextended/dopamine exhausting. Forget it. Be normal: find a single partner have a normal amount of sex. Keep a balance in all areas of your life. Don't allow any area of your life to become dominant.
 

vak88

Member
@Malando, thanks so much for the reply.

RE: Basically like watching porn in terms of overstimulation - yes, 100% agree with this statement. Can't believe I was so blind that I didn't think to take it more easy. Yes, it's essentially just like edging, and makes me feel as if I was just edging!

Question 1
Regarding Karezza - do you think it still makes sense to avoid that entirely? I felt great results when I was doing it without getting close to the edge.

Question 2
Do you think it makes sense to not seek any female contact during the hard reboot (60-90 days) or so, and gradually re-introduce? Or gradually re-introduce from the beginning without pushing it (and obviuosly not having sex until ready!)

THANK YOU.
 
N

Numez

Guest
malando said:
My advice: no more 4 girls in 4 nights. That is basically like watching porn in terms of overstimulation. It's unsustainable and likely to awaken porn style fantasies and thinking. Stop the karezza nonsense. It's not a natural way to have sex. It's a human distortion applied to sex that prolongs it beyond a healthy timespan, and denies the natural release of orgasm. It's edging: overextended/dopamine exhausting. Forget it. Be normal: find a single partner have a normal amount of sex. Keep a balance in all areas of your life. Don't allow any area of your life to become dominant.
im not sure that you know what you talkin about when it comes to karezza.... its not edging... OP in first post clearly made it known that he was not practicing karezza but edging, and then switched back to karezza......

if we are talking about being natural, then marriage and long term relationships are far from it. its natural to spread your genes as far as possible. thats why most people cheat, even some really good people struggle with it. their brain lowers the attraction for their real partner and increase it for others in order to keep reproducing and spreading genes. its the most natural instinct. we dont live natural lives, flying planes, using phones.... if somebody is struggling to stay in love beyond first 6 months, he could try karezza. during reboot i think karezza is the best because it is lacking edging and Oing and its representing the truest bonding behavior.

question 1 - do karezza if it helped, but your partner must also know whats up. you cant do it if your partner wants mating instead of bonding.
question 2 - its really hard to reboot if you avoid female contact during reboot. its highly recommended to have female contact every day if possible.
 

malando

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Nikola Numez said:
malando said:
My advice: no more 4 girls in 4 nights. That is basically like watching porn in terms of overstimulation. It's unsustainable and likely to awaken porn style fantasies and thinking. Stop the karezza nonsense. It's not a natural way to have sex. It's a human distortion applied to sex that prolongs it beyond a healthy timespan, and denies the natural release of orgasm. It's edging: overextended/dopamine exhausting. Forget it. Be normal: find a single partner have a normal amount of sex. Keep a balance in all areas of your life. Don't allow any area of your life to become dominant.
im not sure that you know what you talkin about when it comes to karezza.... its not edging... OP in first post clearly made it known that he was not practicing karezza but edging, and then switched back to karezza......

if we are talking about being natural, then marriage and long term relationships are far from it. its natural to spread your genes as far as possible. thats why most people cheat, even some really good people struggle with it. their brain lowers the attraction for their real partner and increase it for others in order to keep reproducing and spreading genes. its the most natural instinct. we dont live natural lives, flying planes, using phones.... if somebody is struggling to stay in love beyond first 6 months, he could try karezza. during reboot i think karezza is the best because it is lacking edging and Oing and its representing the truest bonding behavior.

question 1 - do karezza if it helped, but your partner must also know whats up. you cant do it if your partner wants mating instead of bonding.
question 2 - its really hard to reboot if you avoid female contact during reboot. its highly recommended to have female contact every day if possible.
Karezza is having sex where the goal is not to have an orgasm. Ok, sure the main goal is to have close union between the parties, but denial of orgasm is going to have one obvious side-effect: it will last for a very long time. We know that edging is bad for this reason - bathing in dopamine for extended periods of time brings about ED, PIED when associated with porn. Karezza is less intense, and more personal, but it's still sex, and it's still a way of deliberately extended things because the longer you don't proceed to orgasm, the longer it tends to last. It's low intensity edging under another name in terms of prolonged exposure to dopamine. The brain always knows orgasm is a possibility, even when you tell yourself that it won't be happening. In my opinion it's more healthy to have normal sex in a normal timeframe than to engage in these sorts of practices. One is natural, one is a thought construct. We don't know the effect of this on a person recovering from PIED. Sure, it's better than edging, but does it really help the problem more than normal sex. It is largely agreed that it's not the orgasm that's the problem with edging, it's the time spent bathing in dopamine. I believe karezza will have a potential side effect of causing an increased desire to chase dopamine if done poorly - which is easy to do for people not experienced. I won't say karezza is bad for everybody, but I do think it's bad for a dopamine addict.
 

vak88

Member
Yes, this makes absolute sense, and I figured that this is what you were getting at with your first comment. Afterwards, i read carefully into karezza and realized that I had it all wrong and it was classic edging. A question for you:

When did you know that it was right to start upping the frequency of orgasms (with women, obviously MO is out the window)?

This question has been bothering me, because I didn't get it right the first time. I know the answer is "gradually" but do you have any other thoughts besides that?
-1 per week to start? then after a month to 2?

Obviously you have to trust yourself, but i've F-ed this up before so would really appreciate any thoughts / guidance. I think a lot of guys might have trouble with this one too... because when you start feeling the mojo kick back in, you need to be prepared to be more disciplined! But more disciplined in what way?

Thanks guys!! Super helpful.
 
N

Numez

Guest
denial of orgasm is going to have one obvious side-effect: it will last for a very long time.
i think an hour is a timeframe and its pretty much like regular sex because in regular sex 20min is foreplay 20min is sex and 20min is cool down (pretty normal one)... but if you dont have an orgasm then you can take as much time as you want, 5 mins to 5 hours. if you have orgasm then you obviously need to prolong it in order to reach it.

why would you prolong karezza sex beyond an hour if your goal is not to edge or reach orgasm?
 

malando

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Nikola Numez said:
denial of orgasm is going to have one obvious side-effect: it will last for a very long time.
i think an hour is a timeframe and its pretty much like regular sex because in regular sex 20min is foreplay 20min is sex and 20min is cool down (pretty normal one)... but if you dont have an orgasm then you can take as much time as you want, 5 mins to 5 hours. if you have orgasm then you obviously need to prolong it in order to reach it.

why would you prolong karezza sex beyond an hour if your goal is not to edge or reach orgasm?
I've given my opinion and stated my reasons for it. You seem to be defending karezza for some reason, and that's your right, although I don't think you've outlined why it's better for a recovering porn addict that normal sex where orgasm is typical. We can just agree to disagree if you like.
 
N

Numez

Guest
its better for reboot because edging and Oing can also be bad if done too early or too often during reboot.
 

vak88

Member
Guys, I clarified my question a little here and started a new thread. would really appreciate if you took a look!



http://legacy.rebootnation.org/index.php?topic=15651.0
 
F

Finw?

Guest
Stop the karezza nonsense. It's not a natural way to have sex. It's a human distortion applied to sex that prolongs it beyond a healthy timespan, and denies the natural release of orgasm. It's edging: overextended/dopamine exhausting.

I don't think you properly understand the neuroscience. Dopamine is involved in the identification and pursuit of rewards, particularly novel rewards. This is why porn is addictive, extremely frequent novel females in high-intensity sex acts. Karezza is the opposite, no pursuit of reward (no upping the intensity or going for orgasm), probably lower dopamine than regular sex. I've literally read thousands of rebooter's accounts over the years and every single person who's tried karezza has said it's been helpful in their reboot, including Gabe Deem. I've never heard any rebooter say that they've been negatively effected by it. In fact, orgasm often sends people back into flatline, so many rebooters do karezza to compensate for this.
 

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
Finw? said:
Stop the karezza nonsense. It's not a natural way to have sex. It's a human distortion applied to sex that prolongs it beyond a healthy timespan, and denies the natural release of orgasm. It's edging: overextended/dopamine exhausting.

I don't think you properly understand the neuroscience. Dopamine is involved in the identification and pursuit of rewards, particularly novel rewards. This is why porn is addictive, extremely frequent novel females in high-intensity sex acts. Karezza is the opposite, no pursuit of reward (no upping the intensity or going for orgasm), probably lower dopamine than regular sex. I've literally read thousands of rebooter's accounts over the years and every single person who's tried karezza has said it's been helpful in their reboot, including Gabe Deem. I've never heard any rebooter say that they've been negatively effected by it. In fact, orgasm often sends people back into flatline, so many rebooters do karezza to compensate for this.

Orgasm from masturbation leads to flatline or only orgasm with a partner leads to flatline? I'm somewhat confused here.
 
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