article on gaslighting.
- Thread starter AppleJack
- Start date
raven song
Active Member
Very interesting!
aquarius25
Respected Member
This is so well worded. Thank you Applejack! As I was reading this I was reflecting on how many times I have heard these things. One thing occurred to me that I thought was strange. Not only have I heard these statements from men but I hear them a lot from other women. My mother would be at the top of the list! I hear women all the time tearing each other down and for what?! Life is hard enough, why do we need to put someone else down just to make ourselves feel better? Can't we support each other and we can all be built up? So frustrating!
It is a very important thing for all people to be aware of. I've been introducing a lot of people to the idea of gaslighting ever since I heard this term a few years ago. It's rife in the world. I've had men and women try it on me. I've probably done it to people in the past - although I'm sure I haven't since I learned about it. I've seen men and women do it to each other. I do not doubt that it's more prevalent among men for the reasons outlined in the link, but it's something that everybody should be aware of because it's very insidious and can drive people around the bend.aquarius25 said:
Emerald Blue
Well-Known Member
Gaslighting drove me mad, although what I believe my husband was actually doing was just pulling out any excuse to alleviate his own anxieties in the moment. The problem with people who lie their way out of trouble is that lies are often inconsistent. Meaning, someone can't recall whether they've lied about something and what they actually said. You believe one "truth" and then you hear another version that contradicts it in some way, so your perception shifts and you feel disorientated. My husband hadn't pre-planned any of it, I believe that like many addicts he acts according to his emotions and his primary motivation is to escape uncomfortable feelings rather than uphold the value of honesty. That would require taking a step back and seeing the situation as something other than his own emotional discomfort.
I actually realised today that I'm having a lot of difficulty relating to my husband because I never really know who he is. Until d day I thought I knew him inside and out. Now I'm not sure who he is. I don't mean in the "OMG he has a secret life" way, but it's as if he has created an outer facade or a persona. He was always one of those people who are very different in private compared with his public face. Now I'm actually wondering if he has a facade he puts on when he is with me. I'm not sure I'm actually interacting with HIM. It's freaking me out. I think this also ties in with the gaslighting. Image-management, defensiveness, worrying about how one is perceived, etc. I think it all overlaps with gaslighting.
I actually realised today that I'm having a lot of difficulty relating to my husband because I never really know who he is. Until d day I thought I knew him inside and out. Now I'm not sure who he is. I don't mean in the "OMG he has a secret life" way, but it's as if he has created an outer facade or a persona. He was always one of those people who are very different in private compared with his public face. Now I'm actually wondering if he has a facade he puts on when he is with me. I'm not sure I'm actually interacting with HIM. It's freaking me out. I think this also ties in with the gaslighting. Image-management, defensiveness, worrying about how one is perceived, etc. I think it all overlaps with gaslighting.
AppleJack
Active Member
My ex was really bad for doing this, though I never realised it at the time I internalised it as it being something wrong with me, I was too emotional, too immature etc. My husband has done it too, though with him it seems to not be done on purpose. He read the article and it agrees it's very much a cultural and societal problem. I'm good at pulling him up on it now if I feel he's doing it but hopefully he'll get more conscious of watching himself from doing it.
I don't think I do it to other people, I hope not anyway.
I don't think I do it to other people, I hope not anyway.
Kimba
Active Member
I read the article and felt saddened as I do when I feel a kinship to something that has influenced my life to a degree... I think gas lighting is becoming more prevalent for sure... I got the just joking comment many times over the last year and once when I said I feel out of control with all that I was discovering, he pounced on that one and said See you said it, you have to be in control, Im like...der... Not, I just discovered that the man I thought you were is lying and having a relationship with his computer screen... I agree EB my partner never planned it but he bloody worked hard to cover his tracks and tell me I was imagining everything ...
Emerald Blue
Well-Known Member
"I don't know what you're talking about" was one I heard a few times even when it was something he'd admitted to the previous week. Talk about crazy-making. His immediate concern was to get me off his case because he couldn't handle the feelings that go with being found out. The irony is that it he had just admitted it or was more willing to disclose or answer my questions honestly he wouldn't have experienced his emotions running at fever pitch. So he'd just make up nonsense on the spot. I needed a clear idea of his addiction, a realistic narrative in the context of our relationship over the years, and he was reluctant to let me know very much at all. He pulled out all the stops trying to avoid accountability. I heard it all, that I was the loony, that he had no idea what I was talking about, and even justified his porn addiction because I was never available (sorry but I was the one being turned down because you had wanked yourself dry) and that he thought I didn't mind (so why go to all the trouble of hiding and deleting the evidence, besides I never had any say in it).
H
HumbleRich
Guest
Yes, but what is and what is not gaslighting?
When my wife is mad at me or at anything else sometimes she does really need to calm down, because my brain just does not do hyperemotional. I literally cannot help her at that state. These days we often just take a break because I can't help her when she is upset. I am simply not wired that way.
And sometimes she does make a mountain out of a molehill.
In my experience living on emotion gets you next to nowjere.
Yes, emotions are important for empathy and understanding people. But excessive emotion does more barm than good.
Sometimes you just habe to say "life sucks" and get on with your day.
We are not saying it to hurt you or because you or your feelings don't matter.
We are saying it because they literally do not help the situation at all.
If we are lost, getting mad doesn't help.
You get on google maps, you take out your map. You take a deep breath and keep going.
The anger, the lashing out, the blaming, just makes everyone pissed off at eachother and does not help the situation at all.
You are still lost.
There is a d8fference between actual emotional and mental abuse and a guy just saying, "I need to think right now, calm down."
When my wife is mad at me or at anything else sometimes she does really need to calm down, because my brain just does not do hyperemotional. I literally cannot help her at that state. These days we often just take a break because I can't help her when she is upset. I am simply not wired that way.
And sometimes she does make a mountain out of a molehill.
In my experience living on emotion gets you next to nowjere.
Yes, emotions are important for empathy and understanding people. But excessive emotion does more barm than good.
Sometimes you just habe to say "life sucks" and get on with your day.
We are not saying it to hurt you or because you or your feelings don't matter.
We are saying it because they literally do not help the situation at all.
If we are lost, getting mad doesn't help.
You get on google maps, you take out your map. You take a deep breath and keep going.
The anger, the lashing out, the blaming, just makes everyone pissed off at eachother and does not help the situation at all.
You are still lost.
There is a d8fference between actual emotional and mental abuse and a guy just saying, "I need to think right now, calm down."
AppleJack
Active Member
I think you misread the article, perhaps give it another read
Gaslighting is very much a form of emotional and mental abuse.
Also I find it a bit rich for an addict who has used an addiction because they couldn't cope with their own emotions to basically say we're all being too emotional about being gaslight by addicts, who are basically doing so to off load emotions they can't cope with themselves.
re your wife, maybe just offer empathy, it's not rocket science. Telling someone who is angry to calm down is like pouring petrol on a fire, and the thing with gaslighting is the person winds you up then tells you to calm down etc. like I say, read it again, or Google gaslighting, cos you've got the wrong end of the stick.
Gaslighting is very much a form of emotional and mental abuse.
Also I find it a bit rich for an addict who has used an addiction because they couldn't cope with their own emotions to basically say we're all being too emotional about being gaslight by addicts, who are basically doing so to off load emotions they can't cope with themselves.
re your wife, maybe just offer empathy, it's not rocket science. Telling someone who is angry to calm down is like pouring petrol on a fire, and the thing with gaslighting is the person winds you up then tells you to calm down etc. like I say, read it again, or Google gaslighting, cos you've got the wrong end of the stick.
Emerald Blue
Well-Known Member
Gaslighting is an attempt to manipulate someone else?s perception of reality to the point where the person has no concrete sense of what?s true and what?s false. That?s a pretty good way of deciding what is of isn?t gaslighting.
Lying is a form of gaslighting because it?s used to control another?s perception of reality. Most gaslighting is a longer term manipulation to keep the recipient in a state of confusion and ignorance.
My partner?s gaslighting was not only outright lying, but denying all knowledge of what he admitted to previously. Another thing was him getting mad at me because I didn?t believe him when he lied to me, and another was to deny all knowledge when presented with his own evidence. Saying he?d told me ?everything? but then saying he had no memory of his acting out.
Some of this behaviour was a deliberate long term strategy in the sense that he worked out what his storyline was and intended to stick with it. At other times he?d just be trying to lie his way out of a situation on the fly. The trouble was he didn?t know what he?d admitted to or what I knew/didn?t know, so there were many inconsistencies. Sometimes his lies were so convincing that had I not had any evidence to the contrary, I would have believed him. When you have been gaslit you can?t tell fact from fiction because the lies resemble the truth. You can?t trust your own judgment any more. That?s the crazy-making part.
When someone is gaslit, it doesn?t necessarily mean that their emotions are running high all the time. Sometimes yes, but it pales into insignificance compared to how off-the-scale the addict?s emotional reaction. Another technique of gaslighting, not mentioned specifically in the article, is the temper tantrum, the purpose of which is to avoid being truthful or accountable by creating such a disruption that it?s impossible to communicate ? to the person doing the gaslighting, that?s a positive outcome. To the person on the receiving end, they conclude that they daren?t ask that question again because ?look what happened the last time when I did?. And if they do, it?s ?I don?t know what you?re talking about?.
Lying is a form of gaslighting because it?s used to control another?s perception of reality. Most gaslighting is a longer term manipulation to keep the recipient in a state of confusion and ignorance.
My partner?s gaslighting was not only outright lying, but denying all knowledge of what he admitted to previously. Another thing was him getting mad at me because I didn?t believe him when he lied to me, and another was to deny all knowledge when presented with his own evidence. Saying he?d told me ?everything? but then saying he had no memory of his acting out.
Some of this behaviour was a deliberate long term strategy in the sense that he worked out what his storyline was and intended to stick with it. At other times he?d just be trying to lie his way out of a situation on the fly. The trouble was he didn?t know what he?d admitted to or what I knew/didn?t know, so there were many inconsistencies. Sometimes his lies were so convincing that had I not had any evidence to the contrary, I would have believed him. When you have been gaslit you can?t tell fact from fiction because the lies resemble the truth. You can?t trust your own judgment any more. That?s the crazy-making part.
When someone is gaslit, it doesn?t necessarily mean that their emotions are running high all the time. Sometimes yes, but it pales into insignificance compared to how off-the-scale the addict?s emotional reaction. Another technique of gaslighting, not mentioned specifically in the article, is the temper tantrum, the purpose of which is to avoid being truthful or accountable by creating such a disruption that it?s impossible to communicate ? to the person doing the gaslighting, that?s a positive outcome. To the person on the receiving end, they conclude that they daren?t ask that question again because ?look what happened the last time when I did?. And if they do, it?s ?I don?t know what you?re talking about?.
Emerald Blue said:
This resonated with me so much when reading it - the entire thing. I think a lot of my husband's gaslighting came from being caught up in his lies. He also says what he thinks I want to hear, whether or not he has any intentions of following through.
Then, there is the not really knowing him. I sometimes really sit there and think that there is almost nothing I wouldn't believe about my husband. If someone said he joined a cult, I would have to give pause and think "that might be possible". If someone said he stripped naked and ran through Walmart - I would not dismiss them outright. If someone said they saw him walking down the middle of the street, babbling to himself incoherently - I couldn't dismiss them instantly. It is really quite scary living with someone and you really and truly don't know who they are as a person.
Emerald Blue
Well-Known Member
Stillme, a few months after d day after having gone round the omission/denial/minimising/reluctant partial truth circuit several times too often I realise that he was answering my questions in a manner akin to a chess game combined with advertising copy. If I asked him anything his first reaction was to establish what I knew already so he could create an answer (and I use the word ?create? deliberately) that was meant to appease and control my perception of him rather than say what the truth is. He would often backtrack by narrowly interpreting my question so as to give out a palatable answer. For example, if I asked him if the went to ?this? bar he?d deny it, but he wouldn?t say he?d been to ?that? bar in the same locality that also offered similar ?entertainment?. So what did I have to do? Go online and find out all the bars of that kind and then ask him one by one? Well, that?s just too fucking crazy. I knew that if the the truth is ?yes? he?d still say ?no? anyway. In the end, my sanity was a far bigger priority than his farcical play-acting.
At this point, the only thing I am concerned about is his honesty and transparency in the here and now. I wanted as accurate a picture of his acting out history as possible but I don?t believe that I know ?everything?. Maybe 80-90%. His attitude became ?if you can?t prove it, it didn?t happen? and I know from experience that even where there is evidence he will either feign memory loss, or even insist that it ?proves nothing?. I grew tired of the whole routine.
Having been through the gaslighting experience, I now know to listen to my gut. If something doesn?t feel right, there?s probably a reason. I might not know the details or the facts, but when something feels ?off?, it?s because something IS off. I know that I will never trust in the way I used to. These days it?s ?Does this FEEL right?? Or ?what?s the probability of this being true?? I now know to leave a margin for error with EVERYTHING I?m told.
But just for the sake of the newer partners here, I now know that my healing isn?t dependent on my partner?s being willing to fully disclose his acting out history, it?s not dependent on vigorous honesty, or whether or not he ogles at women on TV, or eyeball-stalks a woman in the supermarket. I?m at the stage where I?m developing a healthy sense of detachment, in that HIS behaviour belongs to HIM, and it?s his responsibility to conduct himself as he deems fit and proper. I?m not the controlling parent. I?m not his babysitter. I?m not his internet cop. To quote Paula Hall?s book on the 5 pillars ? I am responsible for me. I?m still 100% committed to the relationship, but there comes a point when I have to detach and take care of my own needs.
At this point, the only thing I am concerned about is his honesty and transparency in the here and now. I wanted as accurate a picture of his acting out history as possible but I don?t believe that I know ?everything?. Maybe 80-90%. His attitude became ?if you can?t prove it, it didn?t happen? and I know from experience that even where there is evidence he will either feign memory loss, or even insist that it ?proves nothing?. I grew tired of the whole routine.
Having been through the gaslighting experience, I now know to listen to my gut. If something doesn?t feel right, there?s probably a reason. I might not know the details or the facts, but when something feels ?off?, it?s because something IS off. I know that I will never trust in the way I used to. These days it?s ?Does this FEEL right?? Or ?what?s the probability of this being true?? I now know to leave a margin for error with EVERYTHING I?m told.
But just for the sake of the newer partners here, I now know that my healing isn?t dependent on my partner?s being willing to fully disclose his acting out history, it?s not dependent on vigorous honesty, or whether or not he ogles at women on TV, or eyeball-stalks a woman in the supermarket. I?m at the stage where I?m developing a healthy sense of detachment, in that HIS behaviour belongs to HIM, and it?s his responsibility to conduct himself as he deems fit and proper. I?m not the controlling parent. I?m not his babysitter. I?m not his internet cop. To quote Paula Hall?s book on the 5 pillars ? I am responsible for me. I?m still 100% committed to the relationship, but there comes a point when I have to detach and take care of my own needs.
It is a very delicate dance, because I personally feel that gaslighting is a form of abuse. My husband is slightly coming to terms with gaslighting being a form of abuse. I always said I would not be in an abusive relationship. He doesn't gaslight now, but I don't honestly know if he doesn't do it because it doesn't work, or because he honestly knows it is wrong.
The same with affairs. During his time with porn, he really didn't consider having emotional attachments to webcam girls affairs, now he says he realizes it was - but I am not quite sure. He didn't consider going to a massage parlor for a blow job an affair, now he 'says' he realizes it was an affair. Again, I consider affairs a form of abuse.
So, I am constantly trying to figure out how you 'fix' an abusive relationship. I have tried not to turn into a woman who accepts abuse, who needed to be rescued from an abusive relationship. It is so hard looking at a person you loved with all your heart, and seeing that he actively did abusive things to you, so that he could engage in his own pleasure.
Kids have sincerely complicated things. I was so shocked this man I loved would do something that was literally psychologically abusive. It is actually one of the reasons I will not divorce him. If I divorce him, he would be granted unsupervised visitation with the children, and I just don't trust that he understands psychological abuse enough not to start doing it to the children. So, I am staying 'for the kids', but not because I am trying to pretend we have a good marriage. But, because I just don't trust that he fully gets how harmful lying and gaslighting are and I am not sure he has grown enough as a person to not play mind tricks on the kids if it would allow him to get what he wants. I still tell myself he isn't a 'bad' person, just a broken person that hasn't done deep enough work to be trusted. My kids have actually gone to him letting him know they are worried about him mentally - something I never, ever would discuss with the children. They see him struggle with making good decisions. Nothing big, but little things that should be easy for an adult. They have caught him in lies themselves. It has been very hard for them to reconcile their parent is a liar. But, even seeing the disappointment from his children when they catch him in a lie hasn't been enough to keep lying from being his default. He is trying, very hard - but when you lie each and every day for five or more years, it is a terrible habit to break.
It is a conversation he and I even had this morning. We were talking about the goal of instilling good moral character in the children. He can finally admit that yes, he lied every single day before and after d-day until about a few months ago. Not even big stuff, but small things, things that I knew already. His biggest issues lately have been micro-gaslighting. An example is he will say, "I am going to cook all weekend." He will then cook one day and say, "Yes, I promised to cook, so I cooked." With zero acknowledgement that he promised to cook the entire weekend, but only cooked one day. Instead of phrasing it as, "I know I committed to cooking the entire weekend and only did it one day", he would say it as if he did this big favor and fulfilled everything he committed to. Even the kids, who would hear him say he was going to cook the entire weekend, would look at him like he had three heads.
I will definitely say I have healed significantly more since I separated myself from the relationship. Although, there have been some physical repercussions from the stress. But, I am vying to get my physical health back as well. But mentally, I finally feel like I am complete and enjoying my life. I do still miss the idea of a happy, healthy marriage. But, I embrace being a happy, healthy individual.
The same with affairs. During his time with porn, he really didn't consider having emotional attachments to webcam girls affairs, now he says he realizes it was - but I am not quite sure. He didn't consider going to a massage parlor for a blow job an affair, now he 'says' he realizes it was an affair. Again, I consider affairs a form of abuse.
So, I am constantly trying to figure out how you 'fix' an abusive relationship. I have tried not to turn into a woman who accepts abuse, who needed to be rescued from an abusive relationship. It is so hard looking at a person you loved with all your heart, and seeing that he actively did abusive things to you, so that he could engage in his own pleasure.
Kids have sincerely complicated things. I was so shocked this man I loved would do something that was literally psychologically abusive. It is actually one of the reasons I will not divorce him. If I divorce him, he would be granted unsupervised visitation with the children, and I just don't trust that he understands psychological abuse enough not to start doing it to the children. So, I am staying 'for the kids', but not because I am trying to pretend we have a good marriage. But, because I just don't trust that he fully gets how harmful lying and gaslighting are and I am not sure he has grown enough as a person to not play mind tricks on the kids if it would allow him to get what he wants. I still tell myself he isn't a 'bad' person, just a broken person that hasn't done deep enough work to be trusted. My kids have actually gone to him letting him know they are worried about him mentally - something I never, ever would discuss with the children. They see him struggle with making good decisions. Nothing big, but little things that should be easy for an adult. They have caught him in lies themselves. It has been very hard for them to reconcile their parent is a liar. But, even seeing the disappointment from his children when they catch him in a lie hasn't been enough to keep lying from being his default. He is trying, very hard - but when you lie each and every day for five or more years, it is a terrible habit to break.
It is a conversation he and I even had this morning. We were talking about the goal of instilling good moral character in the children. He can finally admit that yes, he lied every single day before and after d-day until about a few months ago. Not even big stuff, but small things, things that I knew already. His biggest issues lately have been micro-gaslighting. An example is he will say, "I am going to cook all weekend." He will then cook one day and say, "Yes, I promised to cook, so I cooked." With zero acknowledgement that he promised to cook the entire weekend, but only cooked one day. Instead of phrasing it as, "I know I committed to cooking the entire weekend and only did it one day", he would say it as if he did this big favor and fulfilled everything he committed to. Even the kids, who would hear him say he was going to cook the entire weekend, would look at him like he had three heads.
I will definitely say I have healed significantly more since I separated myself from the relationship. Although, there have been some physical repercussions from the stress. But, I am vying to get my physical health back as well. But mentally, I finally feel like I am complete and enjoying my life. I do still miss the idea of a happy, healthy marriage. But, I embrace being a happy, healthy individual.
Excellent points raven song. My husband's lying definitely started from a dysfunctional home. In his home growing up, and still to this day, they never discuss anything important. It doesn't matter how important or insignificant, nothing is every discussed. This includes the molestation of both him and his sister when they were quite young by two different cousins (never discussed, never acknowledged, never reported even though his mother knew - his father still doesn't know). His father mentioned being diagnosed with cancer as a passing item one day over dinner. I was shocked and wanted to provide support. Everyone else just said, "Oh, that is too bad" and that was it - no more conversation. It was over and it has never been discussed with any of them again. His mother clearly has signs of dementia showing, they just simply don't say anything. It is like they have convinced themselves if you ignore something, it will eventually just go away.
Then, along comes someone like me, that likes to go ahead at the first sign of trouble and tackle it head on. My husband acknowledges that he really liked that aspect about me and that is what draw him to me. He enjoyed my talking openly with him about anything and he loved that for the first time in his life, he could truly talk about things. However, that was for talking about good things - hopes, dreams, desires, recounting fun childhood memories, etc. But, he just cannot truly and authentically break past his childhood barriers in discussing the not so fun things. Those hard and uncomfortable conversations, he just runs to his 'safe space'. For a long time, that was porn. Instead of talking, even now after porn is long gone (he has been free of porn for 17 months now), he still can't have full, authentic conversations. It is easier and safer 'for him' to lie.
What is shows is that he values his own comfort over what everyone else in the house needs. My kids are very much like me - open, honest, authentic. They have been tremendously hurt by him because they trusted him just like I did. They know I am honest. Even if I have to talk to them about hard things and things that are uncomfortable - I will be honest. They gave those same attributes to my husband. The first time they caught my husband in a lie for themselves, they were devastated. Your parent isn't supposed to lie. The problem intensifies because they are talkers. My kids know they can come and ask me anything, that is how it has always been. So, they have tried to do the same with my husband. However, since telling the truth makes my husband uncomfortable, and he can't just not answer them, he will simply lie. Sometimes it isn't an outright lie, he will lie by omission or lie by not answering the actual question they are asking. They are at a critical age and I notice whenever they have an important question, they will come to me. It was heartbreaking to see that they just completely lost respect for him.
It has been hard for me to wrap my head around, because I was raised to believe that lying was wrong and that it is better to be authentic and hurt, then lie and pretend like you are happy. In fact, I had told my husband from day one that lying was a deal breaker for me in terms of relationships, because it is so disorienting and can drive the honest person crazy. Even in the face of losing everything - his wife, his kids' respect, his marriage and intact family, he just can't break the habit. He will tell the truth if I ask just the right question, in just the right way, so that is he backed into a corner. However, that is completely draining.
We have settled into a new normal that is for me a horrible existence, but one he finds familiar and comfortable. We talk only about things that can be verified. Did he pay the light bill. Do the kids have sports practice tomorrow. Anything beyond that leaves me frustrated and drained because I will hear a lie and I just cannot let a lie stand without confrontation, especially now. It won't even be something big. You can ask him, "what color is the sky?". He will answer, "the sky is green." When you say, "Oh, to me the sky looks mostly blue." His response will be, "that is what I said." When you say, "No, you said green." He will reply, "You must have heard me wrong, I believe I said the sky was aquamarine, which is a shade of blue." To avoid this type of frustration, the kids and I pretty much just barely talk to him about anything of meaning.
I do try to have some sort of real discussion with him once or twice a week, but if feels like a counseling session in which I am walking him through the steps of how to tell the truth the first time. It is draining. Especially when I spent months supporting through is porn addiction recovery. Part of my search through things prior and after d-day showed that he wasn't just lying about porn, he had lied about bad financial decisions he had made and had even lied about parts of his past. The lies about his past weren't 'major' things, but - why lie at all? Why say you were never into porn when you had a subscription to playboy in your twenties?
I have come to the really sad conclusion that had I recognized he had this issue, I never would have married him. He hid it well, but that is because he was raised in a family that is amazingly good at hiding skeletons and even their own pain. I mean, who announces they have cancer - then never even mentions it again? We know he went through chemo and apparently it was successful, we don't know - his dad just never talks about it. His sister told me she was molested at a young age in the most random and nonchalant way and I sat there with my mouth open. I asked if her mother knew and she said, "Yeah, she said just forget about it." But, it only repressed it. She is now in her 40s, single - never been married, never had a real relationship, and she recently had a hysterectomy - so she has no chance of ever having kids. Not one person in the family connected her inability to function in adult relationships and all of her female anatomy problems to being the victim of molestation by a family member. It is like they truly have told themselves it didn't happen and she is just 'unlucky in love and health'. My husband understands that I cannot allow that type of life for my kids, but he just cannot join us on the island of truth, honesty, and authenticity. His ties to his family are just too strong. It took him forever to even come to terms with the fact that his mother was a horrible parent. You do not allow your kids to be molested by random cousins and just tell them to not say anything. She was still bringing them around the people. I had creepy feelings about one of the cousin's as soon as I met him and stopped letting my kids go to family reunions. His mother to this day is upset that I won't go and take the kids, even though I know she is still welcoming this molester. My husband's sister still goes to the family reunions, knowing her abuser will likely show up. But, she says she just doesn't think about it, so it is no big deal. That abuse and the reaction to it has completely ruined her life, and she doesn't even feel it is okay to be angry and she still worships the ground her mother walks on and thinks she is the best mother in the world.
So, I don't have a lot of hope for my husband's transformation. He is trying, I will say that. He has made some improvement. But, I am unwilling to allow my children to be harmed by his lying 'in the meantime'. So, we will stay in our status quo until I know my children are at an age when they can fully defend themselves from his lies and gaslighting on their own. Until then, I am the shield of defense. I am showing them that the first job of the parent is to protect the children from harm, no matter where that harm might come from. In the USA - lying, gaslighting, none of those things would impact visitation rights. I can't even say it is unsafe because the kids might be taken around child molesters - because no one in the family will admit to the molestation. My husband actually tried to get me to let the kids attend the family reunion last year. With a known child molester - are you crazy? So, I know he is just not able to make the right decisions if had unsupervised visitation.
Then, along comes someone like me, that likes to go ahead at the first sign of trouble and tackle it head on. My husband acknowledges that he really liked that aspect about me and that is what draw him to me. He enjoyed my talking openly with him about anything and he loved that for the first time in his life, he could truly talk about things. However, that was for talking about good things - hopes, dreams, desires, recounting fun childhood memories, etc. But, he just cannot truly and authentically break past his childhood barriers in discussing the not so fun things. Those hard and uncomfortable conversations, he just runs to his 'safe space'. For a long time, that was porn. Instead of talking, even now after porn is long gone (he has been free of porn for 17 months now), he still can't have full, authentic conversations. It is easier and safer 'for him' to lie.
What is shows is that he values his own comfort over what everyone else in the house needs. My kids are very much like me - open, honest, authentic. They have been tremendously hurt by him because they trusted him just like I did. They know I am honest. Even if I have to talk to them about hard things and things that are uncomfortable - I will be honest. They gave those same attributes to my husband. The first time they caught my husband in a lie for themselves, they were devastated. Your parent isn't supposed to lie. The problem intensifies because they are talkers. My kids know they can come and ask me anything, that is how it has always been. So, they have tried to do the same with my husband. However, since telling the truth makes my husband uncomfortable, and he can't just not answer them, he will simply lie. Sometimes it isn't an outright lie, he will lie by omission or lie by not answering the actual question they are asking. They are at a critical age and I notice whenever they have an important question, they will come to me. It was heartbreaking to see that they just completely lost respect for him.
It has been hard for me to wrap my head around, because I was raised to believe that lying was wrong and that it is better to be authentic and hurt, then lie and pretend like you are happy. In fact, I had told my husband from day one that lying was a deal breaker for me in terms of relationships, because it is so disorienting and can drive the honest person crazy. Even in the face of losing everything - his wife, his kids' respect, his marriage and intact family, he just can't break the habit. He will tell the truth if I ask just the right question, in just the right way, so that is he backed into a corner. However, that is completely draining.
We have settled into a new normal that is for me a horrible existence, but one he finds familiar and comfortable. We talk only about things that can be verified. Did he pay the light bill. Do the kids have sports practice tomorrow. Anything beyond that leaves me frustrated and drained because I will hear a lie and I just cannot let a lie stand without confrontation, especially now. It won't even be something big. You can ask him, "what color is the sky?". He will answer, "the sky is green." When you say, "Oh, to me the sky looks mostly blue." His response will be, "that is what I said." When you say, "No, you said green." He will reply, "You must have heard me wrong, I believe I said the sky was aquamarine, which is a shade of blue." To avoid this type of frustration, the kids and I pretty much just barely talk to him about anything of meaning.
I do try to have some sort of real discussion with him once or twice a week, but if feels like a counseling session in which I am walking him through the steps of how to tell the truth the first time. It is draining. Especially when I spent months supporting through is porn addiction recovery. Part of my search through things prior and after d-day showed that he wasn't just lying about porn, he had lied about bad financial decisions he had made and had even lied about parts of his past. The lies about his past weren't 'major' things, but - why lie at all? Why say you were never into porn when you had a subscription to playboy in your twenties?
I have come to the really sad conclusion that had I recognized he had this issue, I never would have married him. He hid it well, but that is because he was raised in a family that is amazingly good at hiding skeletons and even their own pain. I mean, who announces they have cancer - then never even mentions it again? We know he went through chemo and apparently it was successful, we don't know - his dad just never talks about it. His sister told me she was molested at a young age in the most random and nonchalant way and I sat there with my mouth open. I asked if her mother knew and she said, "Yeah, she said just forget about it." But, it only repressed it. She is now in her 40s, single - never been married, never had a real relationship, and she recently had a hysterectomy - so she has no chance of ever having kids. Not one person in the family connected her inability to function in adult relationships and all of her female anatomy problems to being the victim of molestation by a family member. It is like they truly have told themselves it didn't happen and she is just 'unlucky in love and health'. My husband understands that I cannot allow that type of life for my kids, but he just cannot join us on the island of truth, honesty, and authenticity. His ties to his family are just too strong. It took him forever to even come to terms with the fact that his mother was a horrible parent. You do not allow your kids to be molested by random cousins and just tell them to not say anything. She was still bringing them around the people. I had creepy feelings about one of the cousin's as soon as I met him and stopped letting my kids go to family reunions. His mother to this day is upset that I won't go and take the kids, even though I know she is still welcoming this molester. My husband's sister still goes to the family reunions, knowing her abuser will likely show up. But, she says she just doesn't think about it, so it is no big deal. That abuse and the reaction to it has completely ruined her life, and she doesn't even feel it is okay to be angry and she still worships the ground her mother walks on and thinks she is the best mother in the world.
So, I don't have a lot of hope for my husband's transformation. He is trying, I will say that. He has made some improvement. But, I am unwilling to allow my children to be harmed by his lying 'in the meantime'. So, we will stay in our status quo until I know my children are at an age when they can fully defend themselves from his lies and gaslighting on their own. Until then, I am the shield of defense. I am showing them that the first job of the parent is to protect the children from harm, no matter where that harm might come from. In the USA - lying, gaslighting, none of those things would impact visitation rights. I can't even say it is unsafe because the kids might be taken around child molesters - because no one in the family will admit to the molestation. My husband actually tried to get me to let the kids attend the family reunion last year. With a known child molester - are you crazy? So, I know he is just not able to make the right decisions if had unsupervised visitation.
Emerald Blue
Well-Known Member
Wow! My husband?s family were the same. There were family secrets even in his grandparents generation, psychiatric illness on both sides of the family, both parents were addicted to alcohol and prescription drugs, he was sexually assaulted by a male relative and didn?t or tell anyone, and interesting what you say about the dad with cancer, my husband?s father would rather have had his family believe he was in remission when he wasn?t. Nobody spoke to each other. Nothing in that family was straightforward. Yet they were all expected to put on a respectable facade. So you see, deception and image management, the perfect training ground for a porn addict or sex addict. I sometimes wonder what his mother had to endure. She is the idealised woman who died young, but she was deeply unhappy and I believe there was something not right in that marriage. She?d down a bottle of Scotch in a day and then go crazy smashing up the house. Hardly the behaviour of a happy woman. So this was the relationship that served as the blueprint for what a marriage should look like. Fortunately for me, my parents were straightforward working people, raising their kids and putting food on the table. If they had something to say they?d say it. I was raised to be honest and tell the truth. Lying was not tolerated in my family but in my husband?s family it was normal not just to make false statements but live a lie.
Emerald Blue
Well-Known Member
Where I am now with gaslighting:
One of the most important aspects of my own healing has probably come out of my experience of being on the receiving end of gaslighting. I came to the realisation that he wasn?t capable of honesty after my final discovery which was met yet again with the usual denial routine but this time I was told that my evidence ?proved nothing?. My sense of reality had been upended too many times. I also realised that ?full disclosure? wasn?t going to happen if he couldn?t disclose anything voluntarily. Meanwhile I was trying to do all the right things. I tried to see life from his perspective and I believe I demonstrated empathy and forgiveness. I committed to rebuilding our sexual relationship. I initiated the difficult but necessary conversations. It was all very one-sided.
Even now, two years on, he still sticks to his story (and once again I?m using the word ?story? deliberately because I think it?s fiction). He still lies when I ask him questions and he still omits to tell me things. As for our sexual recovery, he masturbates secretly and this has interfered with our lovemaking. I don?t care if he does or he doesn?t, but if he?s wanked himself dry I?m wasting my time and energy by making a space for lovemaking to take place. It?s not a very good thing to say but just as I realised he can?t be honest, I also realised that he can?t or won?t communicate authentically. My only option is to draw a line under it.
This was the borderline where the gaslighting stops and healthy detachment begins. I know that he isn?t managing his life as well as he could but there?s not much I can do. Even this past week he chose not to tell me something that I found out about. It wasn?t all that important in itself but I raised the matter calmly and asked why he didn?t want me to know. I explained that this was the very thing that had created problems for us in the past. So.... he either understands that, or he doesn?t. But what he chooses to do remains firmly on his territory.
My most significant breakthrough in making a healthy detachment was the realisation that the recovery of my sexuality was not going to be an outcome of the sexual relationship I have with my husband. Throughout my husband?s porn addiction, I had unknowingly given him the power to decide whether or not I am allowed be sexual. I didn?t ?own? my sexuality at all. It ?belonged? to my relationship, and he was the one with the power to veto it. And that?s effectively what he did. The result was the complete shutting down of my sexuality. After d day, it came back to life rather quickly, but after I was once again able to be multiply orgasmic during sex, he lost interest and retreated into masturbation. (And not telling me.) This was at the very point I regained considerable confidence and enthusiasm for sex. He just withdrew into himself. If that isn?t fucked up, I don?t know what is. From that point on, he had low libido and erectile dysfunction. I thought he?d wise up and realise that his jerking off was sabotaging our lovemaking, and sort of expected him to learn something, but you know.... rinse and repeat. I was ?saving myself? rather naively until one day I realised that I was once again sacrificing my sexuality so that he could play with his dick. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There was no fucking way I was going through all that again. He may not be using porn but for me the situation was identical.
Anyway... I found myself on my own journey of exploration and self acceptance. I treated myself the way I?d like to be treated by a lover. My sexuality, I realised, belongs to me. It?s part of who I am. My body isn?t a consumer product to be chosen or not chosen. My body contains my entire physical existence. My body commands respect. My sexuality commands respect and I will never allow him to veto my sexuality again.
This is all part of building immunity from gaslighting. Gaslighting is so enmeshed with our expectations of honesty and fidelity. It?s intertwined with the addict?s need to protect and maintain a place for addiction to hide. These are two sets of expectations that cannot co-exist in a healthy relationship.
My best option was to detach myself from the relationship ? to some extent ? and forge a new identity. You can?t gaslight someone so easily if they are not so dependent on the relationship with their ?gaslighter?.
Stillme, I?ve just bought Esther Perel?s book on, The State of Affairs, about modern relationships and fidelity. It?s all part of this healing journey. Too often, as I have seen here and from my own experience, we are expected to forgive our partner?s transgressions without knowing all the facts, with all the lies and omissions, all the gaslighting and after years of deception. The definition of fidelity is not so straightforward when it?s done via technology, and how our partners define ?fidelity? seems to be very different from how we understand it. My husband said he didn?t really know what the word meant, and that was how he killed that particular conversation. Again, we?re back to gaslighting....
One of the most important aspects of my own healing has probably come out of my experience of being on the receiving end of gaslighting. I came to the realisation that he wasn?t capable of honesty after my final discovery which was met yet again with the usual denial routine but this time I was told that my evidence ?proved nothing?. My sense of reality had been upended too many times. I also realised that ?full disclosure? wasn?t going to happen if he couldn?t disclose anything voluntarily. Meanwhile I was trying to do all the right things. I tried to see life from his perspective and I believe I demonstrated empathy and forgiveness. I committed to rebuilding our sexual relationship. I initiated the difficult but necessary conversations. It was all very one-sided.
Even now, two years on, he still sticks to his story (and once again I?m using the word ?story? deliberately because I think it?s fiction). He still lies when I ask him questions and he still omits to tell me things. As for our sexual recovery, he masturbates secretly and this has interfered with our lovemaking. I don?t care if he does or he doesn?t, but if he?s wanked himself dry I?m wasting my time and energy by making a space for lovemaking to take place. It?s not a very good thing to say but just as I realised he can?t be honest, I also realised that he can?t or won?t communicate authentically. My only option is to draw a line under it.
This was the borderline where the gaslighting stops and healthy detachment begins. I know that he isn?t managing his life as well as he could but there?s not much I can do. Even this past week he chose not to tell me something that I found out about. It wasn?t all that important in itself but I raised the matter calmly and asked why he didn?t want me to know. I explained that this was the very thing that had created problems for us in the past. So.... he either understands that, or he doesn?t. But what he chooses to do remains firmly on his territory.
My most significant breakthrough in making a healthy detachment was the realisation that the recovery of my sexuality was not going to be an outcome of the sexual relationship I have with my husband. Throughout my husband?s porn addiction, I had unknowingly given him the power to decide whether or not I am allowed be sexual. I didn?t ?own? my sexuality at all. It ?belonged? to my relationship, and he was the one with the power to veto it. And that?s effectively what he did. The result was the complete shutting down of my sexuality. After d day, it came back to life rather quickly, but after I was once again able to be multiply orgasmic during sex, he lost interest and retreated into masturbation. (And not telling me.) This was at the very point I regained considerable confidence and enthusiasm for sex. He just withdrew into himself. If that isn?t fucked up, I don?t know what is. From that point on, he had low libido and erectile dysfunction. I thought he?d wise up and realise that his jerking off was sabotaging our lovemaking, and sort of expected him to learn something, but you know.... rinse and repeat. I was ?saving myself? rather naively until one day I realised that I was once again sacrificing my sexuality so that he could play with his dick. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There was no fucking way I was going through all that again. He may not be using porn but for me the situation was identical.
Anyway... I found myself on my own journey of exploration and self acceptance. I treated myself the way I?d like to be treated by a lover. My sexuality, I realised, belongs to me. It?s part of who I am. My body isn?t a consumer product to be chosen or not chosen. My body contains my entire physical existence. My body commands respect. My sexuality commands respect and I will never allow him to veto my sexuality again.
This is all part of building immunity from gaslighting. Gaslighting is so enmeshed with our expectations of honesty and fidelity. It?s intertwined with the addict?s need to protect and maintain a place for addiction to hide. These are two sets of expectations that cannot co-exist in a healthy relationship.
My best option was to detach myself from the relationship ? to some extent ? and forge a new identity. You can?t gaslight someone so easily if they are not so dependent on the relationship with their ?gaslighter?.
Stillme, I?ve just bought Esther Perel?s book on, The State of Affairs, about modern relationships and fidelity. It?s all part of this healing journey. Too often, as I have seen here and from my own experience, we are expected to forgive our partner?s transgressions without knowing all the facts, with all the lies and omissions, all the gaslighting and after years of deception. The definition of fidelity is not so straightforward when it?s done via technology, and how our partners define ?fidelity? seems to be very different from how we understand it. My husband said he didn?t really know what the word meant, and that was how he killed that particular conversation. Again, we?re back to gaslighting....
Very interesting accounts in here, people - thank you for sharing.
Since i found out about the term gaslighting, it's been very helpful for me in terms of understanding the mechanism people use to abuse others. Previously, I always tried to break everything down into past trauma, experiences, motivations, tactics and behaviours when trying to understand why people were behaving the way they were. But I think it's very helpful to understand the broader concept of gaslighting as an overall strategy that many people use to get people right where they want them. Sure, there are many and varied reasons for how they ended up this way, but in the end, being a gaslighter becomes a modus operandi for a lot of people. It's how a lot of people go through life avoiding responsibility for themselves and transferring it onto others.
I've come to see that I have had a lot of this from my family - they have always liked to define me in ways that make it easy to shoot down what I'm feeling or saying. I'm a real justice seeker who likes to pull things out of the shadows and expose the lies, so it's made for some fiery confrontations over the years. They probably think it's ok to do what they do because I'm so vocal in my opposition and I stand my ground. It looks like I'm willing to take it, but actually it still hurts to be gaslit. It's knowing that somebody is toying with how you feel, with your vulnerabilities, and not giving a crap because they want to win the argument or defend themselves from criticism. Gaslighting is intensely cowardly. The more people who know about this, the better off society will be.
Since i found out about the term gaslighting, it's been very helpful for me in terms of understanding the mechanism people use to abuse others. Previously, I always tried to break everything down into past trauma, experiences, motivations, tactics and behaviours when trying to understand why people were behaving the way they were. But I think it's very helpful to understand the broader concept of gaslighting as an overall strategy that many people use to get people right where they want them. Sure, there are many and varied reasons for how they ended up this way, but in the end, being a gaslighter becomes a modus operandi for a lot of people. It's how a lot of people go through life avoiding responsibility for themselves and transferring it onto others.
I've come to see that I have had a lot of this from my family - they have always liked to define me in ways that make it easy to shoot down what I'm feeling or saying. I'm a real justice seeker who likes to pull things out of the shadows and expose the lies, so it's made for some fiery confrontations over the years. They probably think it's ok to do what they do because I'm so vocal in my opposition and I stand my ground. It looks like I'm willing to take it, but actually it still hurts to be gaslit. It's knowing that somebody is toying with how you feel, with your vulnerabilities, and not giving a crap because they want to win the argument or defend themselves from criticism. Gaslighting is intensely cowardly. The more people who know about this, the better off society will be.
I definitely try to speak up when I think something is harmful or hurting people - whether that's racial, social or gender based. There are just so many examples of unfair treatment in the world! I really laugh when we praise ourselves as a modern world. We are still very much in the dark ages in so many respects.raven song said:
There is a double standard actually! In our family, traditionally, the women were very powerful. My grandmother, my mother, my Aunts. My father is a meek follower. Although part of the reason why I get gaslit is because I make the noise when things are unfair. But in my generation, my older sister doesn't speak up about much, and my younger sister doesn't seem to care about much because life has been very easy for her and she's had incredible luck all her life with minimal effort to get it.
I think your theory is very much on point! I am sensitive and easily hurt. A bunch of stuff that happened to me when I was young no doubt led to me developing a porn habit. It just seemed safer at a time when I felt very unsure of myself. I wasn't a constant user though. Mostly when I've been in relationships, I haven't used it much at all. But when I've been single, I definitely used it for comfort without risk and vulnerability. The stupid thing is that it takes you further and further from what you want - connection with people.
It's interesting to hear this perspective. I never thought about it as a male-privilege, but I guess it is. I never felt like a proud and empowered consumer of porn. It always felt intensely solitary and shameful to admit to. I was always aware that it wasn't a great life-affirming thing. More like a coping mechanism and escapism - so I was aware of its inherently unhealthy quality. It was more that I was in a state of low self-regard so I didn't value myself enough to look after myself better. I was willing to pollute my mind and body with this stuff, just for the sake of momentary escape and arousal. As I said, the vast majority of my porn use prior to my current partner was when I was single, so I wasn't directly affecting anybody in a relationship sense - although I accept that any support of the porn industry is hurting women and society in a broader sense. But I wasn't aware of the sociopolitical side of the porn industry until much more recently. My current partner was the first relationship I've been in where she knew about my porn use and she wasn't bothered by it - in fact, she was a porn user herself. It was actually my own awareness that something wasn't right about what porn made me think and feel that caused me to change it. When I told her I didn't like what porn was doing to me, she actually protested it! She didn't like that I was critical of porn and that I think it harms sexuality and relationships. In time, she has come around to what I was saying. Now neither of us use porn (we never did together).
So maybe my case is not really very representative of how porn abuse plays out in relationships, but it's one expression of it. None of them are good, in my opinion.
As am I. It's vital that this information is out there so people can take heed of it and not fall into the devastating pitfalls that can arise out of porn addiction - as users and as partners. It's toxic to human relationships.
In my family we can't even raise the subject of porn or sexuality!
malando said:
I think this is a key to knowing who will and who won't 'gaslight' in a situation. I have found that anyone who feels like truth is a weapon, they use gaslighting as a perceived 'counterattack'. My husband's response to truth is initially defensiveness. He doesn't get angry or yell, but he immediately shuts down. Truth is so foreign to him that he feels backed into a corner or he feels he is being attacked or harmed when confronted with truth. He once tried to talk to his father about things between us and his dad literally told him, "I don't even want to hear about other people's business. I will just support you in whatever you choose." Mind you - it was my husband that had cheated and lied and imploded the family. His dad started to 'reach out' to him by sending him virtual cards all about "hang in there during the storm" and telling him what a wonderful son he was. It was like, he had to ramp up the ego building in my husband at the first glimmer of my husband seeing himself as the person he was exhibiting at the time.
So, I have learned to sit back and see how people respond to truth and honestly and if they get angry or frustrated or start to act attacked, I steer clear of those type of people. They see truthful people as individuals that need to be conquered and silenced. It becomes a competition to them and they aren't happy until you are crushed, sometimes even publicly.