Transition to Sex / Post-Reboot Thread (can we pin this?)

Gentlemen,

I've been talking with a lot of you here, who seem to be having problems similar to me--namely, with regard to transitioning to real sex after the 90 day reboot is completed. I've learned the hard way that this step is absolutely crucial for the following reason: the longer you go without having sex after completing the reboot, the more likely it becomes that you'll slip back into PMO out of sheer sexual frustration. Let me tell you: I am not going back to PMO, and I'm not going to live a life of chastity. It follows logically from this that I am going to need to transition to sex, as are most of you.

The problem is this: a lot of us are, for whatever reason, not very good with women. PMO has made us awkward, or we slipped into PMO because we are awkward, or we had negative life experiences, religious upbringings, whatever. So, if we want to transition to sex, we are going to need to deal with these problems, and I'd like this thread to be a place where we can do the following:

--present our own unique problems in transitioning to sex.
--provide advice and motivation in dealing with these problems.
--set concrete goals for ourselves and each other, and report back on how we accomplish these goals, and the problems we may run into.
--discuss ways of overcoming fears--fear of rejection, fear of approach, fear of asking for a number, etc.
--offer thoughts on general self-improvement as it relates to attracting women.

Please allow me to offer a few ground rules, and I'll invite others to add new ones or modify these ones if they like:

1. Honesty

It is essential that we be honest with each other, and ourselves here. No one is going to be helped if, for example, you lie about having completed your set goal of talking to 5 girls in a week. This is an anonymous Internet forum, and there's no reason for you to be dishonest with other members--especially since we want to help you transition to sex. We cannot help you if you don't meet us halfway.

2. No whining

If someone calls you out for wussing out, don't whine about it. You are going to have to deal with negative feelings and thoughts once you start meeting and having sex with girls, so don't act offended if someone is straight with you. You need people to be straight with you if you want to fix this aspect of your life.

3. Not being judgmental

It goes without saying that we must be honest with each other, but we must also not be judgmental. We all have insecurities, hangups, fears, etc., that we've accumulated from whatever sources. Let's accept the fact that we're all human, and are going to make mistakes and have weird issues, and work towards fixing them together.

4. Non-PUA

Ideally, I'd like for this to not turn into a PUA thread (pick up artist). I have a lot of issues with PUA as a movement, and besides, it's somewhat ridiculous when you think of it. This is not to deny that there are some good insights within some of the writings of that tradition, and they may be worth discussing if appropriate to a particular member's problems.

5. No questions on PIED or on Abstaining from PMO

We have other forums for discussing these important issues, so please keep those posts separate from this thread.

My Story

I'm 36 years old, and despite the fact that I'm considered handsome, have never really had a girlfriend for more than a couple weeks. If I'm honest with myself, the girls that I've dated/slept with in the past have either been the result of alcohol, or a situation in which she has initiated the contact (it's amusing to me to think of the Korean girl I knew, who just came up to me and kissed me, God bless her). I don't drink much anymore, and I'm not going to wait around for a girl to imitate contact with me. I have a lot of fear around going up to a woman I don't know and introducing myself, and putting myself in the position of vulnerability. PMOing was my way of escaping this responsibility, and it's time for me to own up to the fact that it is on me to fix this aspect of my life.

Now, I need to enlist the help of those of you who have transitioned to sex successfully in this thread. You may not, for whatever reason, have the particular insecurities that I and others here have--and are thus in a great position to help us.

It's my opinion that thinking about transitioning to sex should begin no later than 2/3 of the way through the reboot. At any rate, if you've completed 90 days and are not working towards this, I think you need to identify your problems, and begin to fix them.

I am going to monitor this thread closely, and will not rest until all of us are having successful sex with women we desire. When one of us has successful sex with a woman, we all do.

Hey,

I'm in a similar boat. I have a Reddit post about it (link below), where there are interesting replies, and I also opened a topic here (look it up if you like). But let's gather here, or anywhere, I don't mind

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/comments/604278/long_rebooter_25_years_still_no_luck_with_women/

In the meantime, some additional thoughts:
(I won't repeat what's already on reddit or in my own topic here.)

I think this journey is about much more than the mere sex/no-sex or girlfriend/no-girlfriend question. Since I stopped fapping, everything changed. I dress differently, I moved, changed my car, quit my job, I behave differently, feel differently. What I'm getting at is that these changes take time, sometimes years. And they affect the way you relate to women and how women relate to you! This could be another reason why it takes longer for some to recover, and not so long for others. It may very well occur that you start nofap, and soon after you stopped, you realise that getting a girlfriend is not even your number one priority in your life.

But since it's pretty high on my priority list at the moment, back to the main question...

Some ideas, thoughts, notes, recent realisations not in any particular order:

• I'm fine without sex. I shouldn't be needy. Enjoy chatting to them, and try to meet them just for the sake of it, to be friends.
  
• It should be fun. Don't do it because you have to, do it because you can. And do it only as long as you enjoy doing it. The moment it becomes not to be fun, stop.
  
• It's not about trying to convince women. It's about screening them too. Is she fun enough? Is she someone you enjoy spending time with?
  
• Try to be friends with them, look at what you can give. What you can provide, bring to the table. Your strengths. Confidence comes from a sense of worth. Thinking about the sex that you can get is selfish, it's just taking. Focus on your good qualities and find a mate that you can provide those for.
  
• Some women may be introverts too. Or may find qualities attractive that are not attractive in the classical sense. Something about you.
  
• Be honest? Be honest about your intentions?
  
• Go out and do stuff. Cold approaches. You have been thinking enough, now you need to act. You will be rejected. And you need to be rejected in order to have success. A lot.
  
• Your sex drive may kick in once you're intimate with a woman. Even if you don't find her attractive outside of the bedroom.
  
• You may not be interested in sex itself, but rather the reassurance that you can perform, that you can do it.
  
• I'm a perfectionist. Don't be a perfectionist, and don't think too much. Do stuff, act!
  
• Don't think about sex. Try to find a girlfriend. A girl friend, who you feel comfortable with. Try to find someone who you can get to know etc. Be interested in the person.
  
• Some people report that they don't have any sex drive, but when they're intimate with a woman, they can have sex. Their body responds to a woman's affection and touch.
  
• Maybe what I'm experiencing is meant to be this way? I mean the fact that I don't feel very horny, but I feel motivated to meet women. Maybe this is the right direction and I should force myself to approach. Maybe if I was horny all the time it would make it more difficult to approach. Maybe it's a design feature, so we can approach with a clear head, and we get horny only when the woman likes us and we're already intimate?

I don't have any conclusions, since I haven't figured it out yet. But I have the feeling that there's no easy way. Just because you're physically able to climb the rope, it doesn't mean you don't have to learn how to climb it. Just because you're clean, and you're capable of having sex in theory, it doesn't mean you don't have to learn how to get it, and learn how to do it.

It's meant to be hard. Think about it. Not counting food, air, and other basic bodily functions, sex is the topmost desire that everyone wants, and every man is virtually nonstop thinking about how to get it, every day. So it won't come cheap.

In my case right now I'm really trying to focus on two things:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Meet women from dating sites, even if they are not 'love for the first sight' based on their pictures. This may be dishonest, I don't care. My theory is that eventually I may get to like them in real life. But if I don't, no big deal, I'm still practicing dating in the meantime. Or if I'm capable of having sex without love (in theory), then I may even get sex even if I don't get to like them. Again, dishonest, and again, I don't care. I don't need to overdo this. Just when I'm in the mood, when I have the time, do it for fun.
[*]Somehow get in the state of mind, where I can approach girls whenever and wherever. I don't mean go out and cold approach on purpose. I mean when you are anywhere, unprepared, and out of the blue some random girl gives you an inviting look, you're able to walk up to her and talk to her. Spontaneously! I call this the "First act, then think" method. I need to learn how to jump into situations where I don't know what to expect, and what the potential consequences are. And I think this is key. Because when you go out and cold approach on purpose, it's all calculated, so in fact you are not taking any risks, and girls are smart, they sense that.
[/list]

So, I haven't been posting here in a few weeks, but I had to post for this one. I have lots to say.

Firstly, I think we should adjust the rules thusly:

5: No talk of sexual dysfunctions - as Death Trap says, we already have a forum for that

6: No questions on how to become abstinent, this thread is about a different aspect of rebooting

for 6, I say no Q's rather than no talk because that allows us to make a comment like "Overcome AA and you'll have less shame, which will help you achieve abstinence" if we need to, but still stops the thread being overrun with off-topic talk on how to achieve abstinence.

FWIW, my dating history is similar to Death Traps - my liasons with women have mostly been drunken affairs and she often initiated or someone else set us up in some way. I am 32.

Personally, I don't think that most of us got here due to being bad with women in the way most people think about it. Instead, I think we mostly just didn't get into the game. To demonstrate this, I would ask anyone who is struggling with this part of the reboot, how many women have you flirted with and asked out in the last twelve months? For me it's zero, due to AA. If it's zero for you, then you don't know whether women like you or not, because you just aren't getting involved - you're probably avoiding them.

So, for me, I don't think I need to learn pick up as much as I need to overcome an anxiety disorder so that I can interact with women when I have the opportunity and actually try to get into relationships with them. So, PUA's don't have the answer, CBT does, for me (and probably nearly all guys who answer my question with "Zero") anyway.

So, what are my goals? Well, currently I just have one. That is to overcome AA. I consider that I have overcome AA when I can do the following most of the time:

1) Approach a woman I like and have a conversation with her, in an environment/situation where it's conventional to do so
2) Indicate interest in a woman I have rapport with, including giving compliments, teasing/banter and conventional flirting
3) Ask out a woman I think is interested in me

My approach to overcoming my AA is to use systematic desensitization, which is an anxiety reducing therapy. The idea is to expose your self to the feared thing in a very small way to start with (e.g. looking at a cartoon drawing of a fairly tall building if you're really afraid of heights) and to repeat this until you are comfortable with that kind of exposure to the thing. Then you repeat, but with a stronger level of stimulus (e.g. a photo of a fairly tall building if you're afraid of heights). The idea is you eventually get up to the level you want to be able to do (e.g. going to the top of the Eiffel Tower and observing the view).

So, for me the first level is where I am now. It is:

1) Go to a place where there are women and being ok hanging out there

The second level, which has to be only slightly higher than the first, is:

2) Go to a place where there are women and give some of them proximity for at least a minute, one at a time

In step two, I just mean be near them. So, for example, when I go to the supermarket, I don't normally stand next to the hot chick who's looking at something I don't want and nor do most people. Most people mind their own business and just get their food.

If you're amazed by how small i'm starting (and by the cartoon building example), then bear in mind that overdoing it has the opposite effect. Phobias are created when you get into a situation and experience such high anxiety and/or fear that you create a memory of strong anxiety or fear with the stimulus, which then gives you more anxiety or fear than you would otherwise have experienced with similar stimuli in more normal situations. In other words, it's absolutely critical that the exposures are to low level fear or anxiety or exposure will increase fear or anxiety instead of reducing it.

Systematic desensitization works via neuroplastic brain rewiring, so little and often works best as this happens partly in your sleep. Therefore, I will aim to do step two three days per week until I think i'm comfortable with that step.

I went to a convention yesterday where there were a lot of girls. My goal was to talk to girls I have never talked to before. For most of it I thought I was going to end up like I normally do where I just choke and end up talking to no girls. Well, at the end I somehow ended in a situation where I talked to 3 cute girls at once. I know you might be thinking "that's not a big deal. I do that in my sleep" but for me and my situation I think it's a big deal because I'm shy and porn has destroyed my libido in the past I hadn't even desired something as simple as that.

I didn't feel anything when I was talking to them but it was when I went to sleep I started to. One of my friends had asked some other random girl on a date. That hadn't even crossed my mind. I've only ever been on one date my entire life. I was thinking if I think one of them likes me I should ask her out on a date but then I'm like even if I don't think she likes me should I ask her anyway?

@LongRebooter: I agree with all of your bullet point observations, and think that they are all very important. I could probably write pages on each one, but since I wholeheartedly agree with them, I won't bother (others might want to dig in a bit). I read your reddit post, but haven't read all the replies yet. I wanted to ask about a couple of things:

1. You've been 3.5 years without porn, that is amazing. You say you've been 2.5 doing nofap, and are still a virgin--does that mean you haven't had an orgasm (outside of nocturnal emissions, probably) in that time period?

2. With regard to your appearance: would you say that you look the best that you could? Are you groomed the best you can be; are your clothes the best they could be; are you in decent physical shape? Obviously, this is not the most important thing, and in no way a deal breaker (think of the thousands of mediocre guys you've seen in your life with beautiful girls)--but it does seem to give a bit of an edge.

3. Do girls/women you see sometimes give you the verbal cues that they'd like you to approach them? Do they make long eye contact; smile; those types of things?

4. Could you, right now, walk up to an unattractive girl you don't know and ask for directions? If so, could you go up to her and start a conversation (even if rehearsed)? What about the first question with regard to an attractive girl (I assume you couldn't do it with regard to starting a conversation)?

I'm not personally into online dating, but I'd say that if it's something you feel comfortable doing, then it's definitely a good way to develop comfort dealing with women.

I'll get back to you after I hear what you have to say on my questions.

@FapFreeZone: I've modified my OP to conform to your suggestions.

Now, I agree with you with regard to "exposure therapy" being the only way to overcome fear of approaching strangers, and I'm totally fine with you taking the baby steps approach. Keep us posted on this--who knows, maybe when you're sitting next to a girl in a park you'll feel the urge to strike up a conversation? As I think Woody Allen said, 80% of life is just showing up. Make time in your schedule to go do this.

Also, I totally agree with your 3 goals with regard to this situation. I'd be pretty happy if I could attain those three things, which I'm committed to doing.

Have you read the book "Feel the fear and do it anyway?" I forget who wrote it.

There's another "relationship guru" type guy who recommended the following for getting over the initial fear of approaching women:

Go to the mall, or wherever, and just walk around for a while. Progress, if you can in one day, through these three steps:

1. Make eye contact with the girls you see. You can look away first, but it's even better if you wait until she does.
2. Make eye contact and then smile. If you do this, I'd advise you work on a non-creepy smile in front of the mirror. Get comfortable with the natural one you get when you see someone you're friends with, or something you like, etc.
3. Make eye contact, smile, then say 'hi'.

The point is to set aside some time in one day to actually going and doing this.

@Big H: Congratulations on taking a step up. Next time, here's what you could've done to the chick you wanted to ask out: say, "hey, I'd really love to continue this conversation. Can I get your number?" If she says "no" (which she won't say in those many words--she'll say she has a boyfriend), just be like "well, if you change your mind (or, in the case of the boyfriend excuse, 'if it doesn't work out')let me know." Then eject. At worst, you'll have made her day by making her feel good. Keep us posted on your next steps.

LongRebooter,

I read your reddit thread and I know you said you don't have a problem with the dishonesty of dating a woman you don't like, but if you think it's dishonest it will hurt your chances and I think there's no need to think of it that way. What I would recommend is being open to the idea that you will become attracted to the woman, although there is little physical chemistry (I think this is true of you from what you've said).

Then, if she asks if you like her, you can tell the truth and say something like:

"Well, i'm not sure right now, but I like to give girls a chance to see if chemistry builds over a few dates before deciding if I want to take things further or not. I guess you could say i'm an optimist and i'm hoping we'll get to like each other!".

I'm not recommending specific words, just that you can be honest and admit your waiting to see if chemistry will build slowly, based on personality. That way, you don't have to tell her she's stunning, though I do think you should choose women who you think look fairly good and tell them they look good to you (personally I think overweight women who take care of their appearance can still look good, for example), but you can be honest with her and tell her the things you actually do like about her, such as accomplishments, personality characteristics or whatever and that you're waiting to see if chemistry builds.


Death Trap,

That's an interesting alternative method and I've actually tried it out, though I don't remember reading it from a guru. What happened was I tried it in the street and found it hard to get eye contact, though I did sometimes. Often I was too far away for intentions to be clear, which is tricky when you're both moving. Thinking about it, maybe if I stood still then it would be easier as i'd have more time.

I'm gonna focus on my method for now, but I might also try the standing still version of the other method once per week too. I'll post updates perhaps weekly to say how it's going.

Edit: Also, I have read feel the fear and it's by Susan Jeffers. I find, though, that I often can't just push through fear and that I need to take the edge off by using CBT or some other therapy

You guys have written a lot, so I am not sure if this has already been covered... but as someone who has sucessfully recovered I wanted to give my quick two cents! 

Best way I found to "Transition to Sex"  is get a girlfriend.  and just have sex off the table for a little while. 

I think what we fail to realize is that our largest sexual organ is our brain.  And the wires in our brain are all messed up due to porn.  so if you really want to fix your sex life, you need to focus on your brain as a sexual organ.  Sex is not just looking at photos and jerking it.  Sex is not just throwing y our womans face down into a pilllow and pile driving her non stop until you bust in 3 minutes.

The BEST part of sex is the flirting, the foreplay, the teasing, just closeness to your partner... etc... Sex can be a beautiful thing.

So the best thing you can do is get a girl, and focus on these aspects of sex.  Her smell, her smile, making her laugh, gentle kissing... basically focus on her... Guys I am not kidding, sex starts on the date.. sex starts throughout the day when you randomly text her saying that you're thinking about her.. etc.. all that corny stuff.    I think porn has made men very selfish in the bedroom.  IT makes so much sense, none of us have really learned "how to have sex" except from watching porn.. and porn is NOT sex. not even close.  but it's all we know, and we try to replicate what we see.

Death Trap said:

1. Make eye contact with the girls you see. You can look away first, but it's even better if you wait until she does.
2. Make eye contact and then smile. If you do this, I'd advise you work on a non-creepy smile in front of the mirror. Get comfortable with the natural one you get when you see someone you're friends with, or something you like, etc.
3. Make eye contact, smile, then say 'hi'.

Click to expand...

In regards to this smiling stuff.  It actually really works. haha  when it comes to smiling (unless you know what you're doing)  LESS IS MORE! lol  Lets not even call it smiling yet... call it a smirk. 

Look at a woman, if she looks back give a little smirk... if she brightens up, then you can go bigger with your smile.  It's actually a lot of fun   If she looks away, then looks back and smiles again... psh easiest thing in the world go up and say hi.

Pr3c1se said:

Death Trap said:

1. Make eye contact with the girls you see. You can look away first, but it's even better if you wait until she does.
2. Make eye contact and then smile. If you do this, I'd advise you work on a non-creepy smile in front of the mirror. Get comfortable with the natural one you get when you see someone you're friends with, or something you like, etc.
3. Make eye contact, smile, then say 'hi'.

Click to expand...

In regards to this smiling stuff.  It actually really works. haha  when it comes to smiling (unless you know what you're doing)  LESS IS MORE! lol  Lets not even call it smiling yet... call it a smirk. 

Look at a woman, if she looks back give a little smirk... if she brightens up, then you can go bigger with your smile.  It's actually a lot of fun   If she looks away, then looks back and smiles again... psh easiest thing in the world go up and say hi.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I found that smiling too big didn't work either. Similarly, I've never told anyone this, but I also practised a bunch of other expressions to indicate interest in the mirror, like eyebrow raises and slow chin raises with eye contact and a knowing smile (like "how you doin'" as Joey from Friends would have said)! It's all coming back and it's so funny to reflect on!

I decided the reason these things didn't work is that they indicate too much interest right away, which can come across as creepy as you haven't even spoken to the girl yet. To her, you're a stranger who's really interested and it's too much so it becomes scary for her.

As far as going up and saying hi being easy, I couldn't disagree more. It's literally impossible for me most of the time, I'm sure I physically can't. I spent at least a year going into town at least fifty times to tell women they were beautiful and I wanted to say hi and I only succeeded in making one approach. Here's how it went:

Me: Excuse me
Her (looks at me and stops)
Me: I just saw you walking down the street and I thought you were so beautiful that I just had to say hi
Her: (huge smile) Really!?!
Me: Yeah, what's your name?
Her: it's [name], but why are you doing this?
Me: Well, it's an American convention I think [i'm British], but guys over here are getting more used to it I think
Her: Yeah, but why are you doing it and why now?
Me: Well, I just wanted to talk to you. Isn't that ok?
Her: I just don't get it, that's all. I mean, who does this?

and so on. Basically, she had a problem with me even talking to her. I don't know if I handled it badly but IIRC she seemed a little angry at points. Maybe she thought I was a player. I don't know. Anyway, that's the only cold approach I've done without the supervision of a dating coach and I thought it really sucked. It literally took me a year to work up the courage and after that I just quit.

That's why later I started again from a lower level and did the eye contact stuff. Then I had a spate of depression where I couldn't be bothered to continue with it and I haven't been back to it since until now. It's just to easy to put it off because it's aversive to me.

Edit: I also did lots and lots approaches just asking strangers for the time (systematic desensitization/exposure therapy) and that was a complete success

Haha,

Okay well your problem there is you allowed her to direct the conversation.  She was confused, embarrassed, and probably doesn't have it happen to her often!  You gave up control of the conversation, even though you are the one who started with control.  it's your job not to make it awkward, not hers!   

The best thing you can do is crack a joke.  Make sure you can some canned things to say, but don't make them sound canned obviously.  Think of the situation, look at what she's likely doing (or make something up that's funny) then go off that.  If you allow the conversation to derail to "why the fuck are you talking to me" then you already lost... haha control the direction of the conversation, and MAKE HER LAUGH!  If you cannot make a girl laugh, then you have no chance.

These are things that develop... most people don't have these skills, but they are definitely learned with experience.  You really just have to not care about rejection.

Seriously who cares if this girl rejects you?  You don't know her and unless you go up to her you were never going to get to know her!  One of my favorite quotes is, "no girl wakes up in the morning not wanting to be swept off her feet"... Look at your conversation, were you sweeping her off her feet?  Sounded a little boring if you ask me   don't be boring!

Death Trap said:

@LongRebooter: I agree with all of your bullet point observations, and think that they are all very important. I could probably write pages on each one, but since I wholeheartedly agree with them, I won't bother (others might want to dig in a bit). I read your reddit post, but haven't read all the replies yet. I wanted to ask about a couple of things:

1. You've been 3.5 years without porn, that is amazing. You say you've been 2.5 doing nofap, and are still a virgin--does that mean you haven't had an orgasm (outside of nocturnal emissions, probably) in that time period?

2. With regard to your appearance: would you say that you look the best that you could? Are you groomed the best you can be; are your clothes the best they could be; are you in decent physical shape? Obviously, this is not the most important thing, and in no way a deal breaker (think of the thousands of mediocre guys you've seen in your life with beautiful girls)--but it does seem to give a bit of an edge.

3. Do girls/women you see sometimes give you the verbal cues that they'd like you to approach them? Do they make long eye contact; smile; those types of things?

4. Could you, right now, walk up to an unattractive girl you don't know and ask for directions? If so, could you go up to her and start a conversation (even if rehearsed)? What about the first question with regard to an attractive girl (I assume you couldn't do it with regard to starting a conversation)?

I'm not personally into online dating, but I'd say that if it's something you feel comfortable doing, then it's definitely a good way to develop comfort dealing with women.

I'll get back to you after I hear what you have to say on my questions.

Click to expand...

Answering your questions...

1. I have had orgasms. I went to prostitutes on a number of occasions, where I had orgasms from handjobs and blowjobs. In fact it felt like a huge victory at the time, first ever orgasms with a girl. Still was unable to have PIV sex. Last time I went was over a year ago. Since then I consider it a dead end, and I've made it a rule to not pay for sex, so I don't consider it an option anymore. Yes, I do have regular wet dreams, on average about 3 times a month.

2. Yes, I believe my clothes are good enough. Before nofap I used to really not care. I had like one pair of jeans, and one tatty jumper, and I wore those all the time. Now I have a number of items which I can vary, they are recent, and in good condition. "Best they could be" can be argued, actually you made me thinking now... I'm not completely sure about the style. I mean I look just as good as anyone on the street if not better, and I can easily blend in. It might be worth it to move it up a notch however, and aim for more classy clothes. I.e. try to convey that I'm a higher social class. The problems with this are 1) It'd be a disproportionately bigger investment, especially for me, because I'm so tall that regular size clothes rarely fit me. And I'm entirely not convinced that my clothes are the 'bottleneck' that my success depends on. 2) It wouldn't be truly my style at the moment, I'm not sure I'd be absolutely comfortable wearing them.

In regards to my physical appearance, I have my own body image issues, but I do take care of my appearance. I lift, and jog regularly, cut my nails, hair, nose hair, I shave/groom my stubble etc. On the negative side, I'm the ectomorph type (tall and thin), so I have my limits even if I lift, I'm balding etc.

3. Definitely not verbal cues, they don't strike up conversations with me for example. But once in a while I notice girls noticing me, e.g. she looks at me, looks away, then a minute later I catch her eye again, and then that's it. Or you're standing in a line, you're checking out the girl in front of you, she notices, and there's a difference between her putting her headphones in and turning her back on you, and her staying in an inviting/friendly position. These are very subtle, and may as well be just my imagination, but I tend to think that these are all missed opportunities.

4. I could definitely ask anyone for directions if I was genuinely lost, attractive or unattractive. However as soon as it's a planned approach, I'd be really nervous. I tried to do cold approaches in the past. 'Daygame' as the PUAs call it. When you walk up to random girls on the street and start talking to them during daytime. The extremity of the experience is difficult to describe, but I was able to do it. Also, it was more than a year ago, some things has changed since the, maybe I should try it again.

FapFreeZone said:

LongRebooter,

I read your reddit thread and I know you said you don't have a problem with the dishonesty of dating a woman you don't like, but if you think it's dishonest it will hurt your chances and I think there's no need to think of it that way. What I would recommend is being open to the idea that you will become attracted to the woman, although there is little physical chemistry (I think this is true of you from what you've said).

Then, if she asks if you like her, you can tell the truth and say something like:

"Well, i'm not sure right now, but I like to give girls a chance to see if chemistry builds over a few dates before deciding if I want to take things further or not. I guess you could say i'm an optimist and i'm hoping we'll get to like each other!".

I'm not recommending specific words, just that you can be honest and admit your waiting to see if chemistry will build slowly, based on personality. That way, you don't have to tell her she's stunning, though I do think you should choose women who you think look fairly good and tell them they look good to you (personally I think overweight women who take care of their appearance can still look good, for example), but you can be honest with her and tell her the things you actually do like about her, such as accomplishments, personality characteristics or whatever and that you're waiting to see if chemistry builds.

...

Click to expand...

I see your point, and I think it's a really cool advice. It can be conveyed as that, and I wouldn't even be lying. I think doing it this way is totally legit, after all I believe this is what women do as well. As far as I know physical attraction builds over time for them, so why couldn't have the same approach then.

@Pr3c1se

I found your post on sex really helpful, thanks!


@FapFreeZone

Mulling over your only one experience is not the way to do it. It will happen, and will happen not once, but many times. Even the pros have ridiculously low success rates, like 1 in 10 is considered to be really good. And if success means a date or something more, then it's 1 in 50 or 100, or even more. And those are the pros who know what they are doing, who travel, and do it in ideal environments.

I know this may not help you, because if you say you're physically unable to do it, then that might be true. And I don't mean any "limiting thoughts" bullshit. Everyone has their limits. I have mines too.

The frustrating part is when you can't think of a better way of succeeding than pushing your limits. Then how do you push your limits? Or what other ways can you come up with to bypass the obstacles you face?

I think that the problem we're trying to figure out here is so close to the very core of what it means to be a man. Why do some men have 'it', and some don't? And what is 'it'? This may sound a bit too philosophical, but I don't have a better way to say it.

Sometimes I believe that there's no other way of doing it than putting yourself through the pain and experience. Whatever that means in your specific case. We have made a choice, and stopped watching porn and masturbating, because it affected us in a negative way. But still we have to go through the experience and the learning curve that we should have gone through years and years ago. And we don't have a head start, in fact quite the opposite.

Some men have it easier, and some have it worse. But everyone has to fight their own battles.


@Death Trap @FapFreeZone

In regards to your comments about 'exposure therapy', here is what I think.

This may work, and could be a good approach. I think the crucial bit is to define the right 'steps', and constantly challenge yourself. This can be tricky, because you may find that you can get comfortable standing next to girls, but you just can't get yourself to talk to them. Then how do you proceed?

Or you can find that you can talk to them, but can't get comfortable with it, then what do you do?

My own experience with this was as follows. My first baby step was to walk up to a girl, and say "Hi". I told myself I don't care what happens after that, they may hit me, I may run, I may just keep walking like a weirdo, the world may end, but I'm gonna walk up to someone, and say "Hi". It was very hard. Then I realised that nothing bad happened.

I kept working on the project up to a point, where I was able to make 10-20 minute long sensible conversations with complete strangers, and less attractive women. And I could walk up to attractive women, and have brief, few minutes conversations with them. Sure, some of them were really awkward, but some of them were just nice rejections without the awkwardness, but I could do it.

Then I realised that I was living in a shared apartment, in a room the size of which was a joke, with roommates that I hated and didn't get along with at all, I had a job that I very much started to hate, and my life was a mess.

I started to think "Why the fuck am I doing this? What if I found a girl? Where would I take her? Would I be any happier if I found a girl anyway?" So I abandoned the project, and started to take care of issues that should have been taken care of long long time ago, and the next phase of my life started which spans about 1.5-2 years so far. I'm still in this phase at the current day. And the best worst part is that I'm still nowhere near where I want to be.

But back to the cold approach thing. Another thing that comes to my mind is that it's a useful exercise, it doesn't matter if you fail. I'll go even further. The goal should be not to have success, but to go out there and fail. (I've read it somewhere, and often this was the attitude I was trying to have.) Even if you believe you won't pick up any girls this way, it may still be worth doing. It builds character, builds confidence, it's such an ego boost, it'll give you a lot of benefits anyway.

It's just such an effort... Can be really tiring mentally.

I must add that I'm preaching wine and drinking water, because I'm not doing it right now either. But I should. Just half a day once in a month or so, I don't know...

@Pr3c1se: I totally agree with you. I didn't want "sex" to here refer to only the bodily aspects of the activity, but to the deeper human bonding dimension as well. I definitely am out to get a girlfriend, but on the way to that goal is the whole dating issue--with all the approach-related fears intervening. But, also, I gotta keep it real with you--my libidio has come racing back here, and I'm not going to let the clock run out before I relapse or even masturbate. I'm done with that shit.

@FapFreeZone: go ahead and start with your method, and be disciplined in working through your goals. I want to hear how it goes later this week, so please make some time to go ahead and start working on this. Pay attention to what LongRebooter said as to defining the next steps.

LongRebooter said:

Answering your questions...

1. I have had orgasms. I went to prostitutes on a number of occasions, where I had orgasms from handjobs and blowjobs. In fact it felt like a huge victory at the time, first ever orgasms with a girl. Still was unable to have PIV sex. Last time I went was over a year ago. Since then I consider it a dead end, and I've made it a rule to not pay for sex, so I don't consider it an option anymore. Yes, I do have regular wet dreams, on average about 3 times a month.

Click to expand...

By "unable to have PIV sex", do you mean you couldn't get aroused? I totally agree with you on not going to prostitutes. Pr3c1se is right to point out that we need a deeper experience than what a prostitute can offer.

2. Yes, I believe my clothes are good enough. Before nofap I used to really not care. I had like one pair of jeans, and one tatty jumper, and I wore those all the time. Now I have a number of items which I can vary, they are recent, and in good condition. "Best they could be" can be argued, actually you made me thinking now... I'm not completely sure about the style. I mean I look just as good as anyone on the street if not better, and I can easily blend in. It might be worth it to move it up a notch however, and aim for more classy clothes. I.e. try to convey that I'm a higher social class. The problems with this are 1) It'd be a disproportionately bigger investment, especially for me, because I'm so tall that regular size clothes rarely fit me. And I'm entirely not convinced that my clothes are the 'bottleneck' that my success depends on. 2) It wouldn't be truly my style at the moment, I'm not sure I'd be absolutely comfortable wearing them.

In regards to my physical appearance, I have my own body image issues, but I do take care of my appearance. I lift, and jog regularly, cut my nails, hair, nose hair, I shave/groom my stubble etc. On the negative side, I'm the ectomorph type (tall and thin), so I have my limits even if I lift, I'm balding etc.

Click to expand...

Ok, I basically just wanted to make sure you don't dress like a total slob. I think that's what matters most. Also, I'm pretty sure most women regard tall and thin as ideal, especially if you've got some muscle. At any rate, that is best as far as wearing clothes is concerned. Don't worry about the balding thing, since there's nothing that can really be done about it. Plus, think of all the balding men you've seen with desirable women.

3. Definitely not verbal cues, they don't strike up conversations with me for example. But once in a while I notice girls noticing me, e.g. she looks at me, looks away, then a minute later I catch her eye again, and then that's it. Or you're standing in a line, you're checking out the girl in front of you, she notices, and there's a difference between her putting her headphones in and turning her back on you, and her staying in an inviting/friendly position. These are very subtle, and may as well be just my imagination, but I tend to think that these are all missed opportunities.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant to say "non-verbal cues". I don't know why I asked you about this.

4. I could definitely ask anyone for directions if I was genuinely lost, attractive or unattractive. However as soon as it's a planned approach, I'd be really nervous. I tried to do cold approaches in the past. 'Daygame' as the PUAs call it. When you walk up to random girls on the street and start talking to them during daytime. The extremity of the experience is difficult to describe, but I was able to do it. Also, it was more than a year ago, some things has changed since the, maybe I should try it again.

Click to expand...

Ok, good. You seem to be past the level that FapFreeZone is at, save for his heroic attempt to talk to that girl that one time.

In regards to your comments about 'exposure therapy', here is what I think.

This may work, and could be a good approach. I think the crucial bit is to define the right 'steps', and constantly challenge yourself. This can be tricky, because you may find that you can get comfortable standing next to girls, but you just can't get yourself to talk to them. Then how do you proceed?

Or you can find that you can talk to them, but can't get comfortable with it, then what do you do?

My own experience with this was as follows. My first baby step was to walk up to a girl, and say "Hi". I told myself I don't care what happens after that, they may hit me, I may run, I may just keep walking like a weirdo, the world may end, but I'm gonna walk up to someone, and say "Hi". It was very hard. Then I realised that nothing bad happened.

I kept working on the project up to a point, where I was able to make 10-20 minute long sensible conversations with complete strangers, and less attractive women. And I could walk up to attractive women, and have brief, few minutes conversations with them. Sure, some of them were really awkward, but some of them were just nice rejections without the awkwardness, but I could do it.

Then I realised that I was living in a shared apartment, in a room the size of which was a joke, with roommates that I hated and didn't get along with at all, I had a job that I very much started to hate, and my life was a mess.

I started to think "Why the fuck am I doing this? What if I found a girl? Where would I take her? Would I be any happier if I found a girl anyway?" So I abandoned the project, and started to take care of issues that should have been taken care of long long time ago, and the next phase of my life started which spans about 1.5-2 years so far. I'm still in this phase at the current day. And the best worst part is that I'm still nowhere near where I want to be.

But back to the cold approach thing. Another thing that comes to my mind is that it's a useful exercise, it doesn't matter if you fail. I'll go even further. The goal should be not to have success, but to go out there and fail. (I've read it somewhere, and often this was the attitude I was trying to have.) Even if you believe you won't pick up any girls this way, it may still be worth doing. It builds character, builds confidence, it's such an ego boost, it'll give you a lot of benefits anyway.

It's just such an effort... Can be really tiring mentally.

Click to expand...

That's good that you are working on the other aspects of your life too. And I am in complete agreement that failure is actually quite good in this regard. My personal problem is that I tend to ruminate on my failures in life, but meditation practice has helped a little bit in this regard. Besides, since I'm determined to get this aspect of my life sorted, I'm going to have to deal with negative thoughts about failures anyway, so there's really no choice.

Given that you've posted on this forum, I assume you're ready to start getting back to work on cold approaches again?

Based on what you've written directly above, it seems that you've already made a great deal of progress on this front. I don't think, for example, you need to go back and do the basic stuff that FapFreeZone is working on (although you may need to take a few days to warm up, if you've been away from it for a while).

So, here's the question: What is your plan going to be in working on cold approaches (I assume you want to do this, since you said a goal is to be more spontaneous with girls you see in day to day life)? What are the goals here for this week, or whatever? We need you to define some concrete steps to work towards transitioning to sex.

This thread is getting complicated, so let's all not worry about quoting each others direct words.

All,

So i've been out and done mission one! I went to my local supermarket specifically to stand next to girls. lol...! I was fairly nervous going in, but not that bad. I stood next to a few girls and looked at posh cheese and such like (all the pretty girls seem to be buying expensive stuff for some reason) and I was initially nervous but stayed and it died down each time. None of the ladies hung around for more than like twenty seconds, so it wasn't a huge test, but I think it was a reasonable level to start at - better than my attempts at asking for the time, which I did and progressed with but found really arduous.


Precise,

It's funny, I hadn't even considered just changing the subject and trying to win her over by making her laugh. Also, I am typically the passenger in conversations and it's something I've been trying to change.  At the time, though, I would probably have been thinking that she was concerned and I needed to alleviate that concern by talking her round and making it seem ok that I was talking to her. i.e. discuss the point until she changes her mind.


Long rebooter,

you may find that you can get comfortable standing next to girls, but you just can't get yourself to talk to them. Then how do you proceed?

Click to expand...

Well, you do an intermediate step. So, in this case, just ask a functional question like "Hey, do you know if this Gouda tastes like edam? 'cause I like edam but I've not tried Gouda before". Then, whatever she tells you, just say thanks and eject. Trying to take too big a step can prevent the process working so you just have to make the steps the right size, as well as getting the initial level right.

As far as your roommates and your job, what qualities would you like in them? Do you want roommates who do or don't drink or smoke? Roommates who like sports or computer games? Etc. If you knew what you wanted in your roommates you'd be in a better position to find good ones. Same with your job.

Also, I really like the idea of trying to fail during the learning process as I feel like it will take away a lot of the AA by eliminating pressure to succeed. I presume you change the attitude once you get more experienced, but by then you'll be more confident of success so I presume you can at that stage change to something like "I aim to perform well" so, something independent of her response. If your chat is good, then you did well and it was a success.

Also, I agree that you're further along than me and you should be proud of that. When I posted about my mirror gestures, my attempts at eye contact and my asking for the time (which was the bigger success) I felt really proud and excited because I realised I had been going out and doing it and succeeding. So think of the successes you've already achieved.

@Death Trap

You seem to be very organised, this is great.

On the sex with prostitutes, and being unable to have PIV sex... PIV requires a stable erection. You get erect, put the condom on, fiddle around, and manage to penetrate, and do all this while still staying erect. For me it was very fragile. She started giving me oral or a handjob, and the first couple of times I just told them to keep going until I'm finished, because I was so worried that it can be gone any minute. Success. Then one time I thought ok, let's try to put a condom on, and as I expected, it was gone. She couldn't even finish me with her hands after that. Mind you, it was a different girl every time. This was for multiple reasons. One, I was to embarrassed to go back to the same one. Two, I didn't really like any of them. I mean they looked stunning and young and all, but it was awkward, there was zero connection, the clock was ticking, and non of these helped my case. If money wasn't an issue, I may still visit them from time to time, or maybe hire some higher class escorts with whom it's a much better experience I guess. But then again, the amount of time you'd need to spend with them in order to get comfortable, and the price of that may still not be worth it, who knows. And it may still not be a solution on the long run, because you'd still be living in fantasy world.

On ruminating over failures... I'm the same. But I think I have improved a lot since I've stopped masturbating. Even though I think I'm still more sensitive than I should be, I get over failures much easier now. Same is true for causing people discomfort, or standing up for myself. I used to be a real wuss, but I handle such situations a bit better now.

On cold approaches, and my plans... I have an exam coming up in May, so I may put this whole 'getting a girlfriend' project on hold until that is over, because it really distracts me, and I don't want to fail the exam. I'll see how it goes, but I won't be able to keep any short deadlines. (I'll probably need to stop visiting the forum too for a little while, I'm starting to spend to much time here too.)

I would say I'll definitely do at least one cold approach session, but possibly more till the end of June. I'll have to start from saying "hi" and run, then saying "hi" and don't run, saying "hi" and saying something else, and so on...

Another goal could be to go on a date with someone till the end of June with no rules for where I've met the girl, and how I like her prior to the date. She could be from an online dating site, a friend of a friend, or someone I've met on the street, doesn't matter. The point is to go on a date, in other words spend time with her one on one.

I think these are concrete enough, and achievable as well.

For bonus points: Approach a girl or ask for contact details spontaneously, unprepared, on a random day, at a random place. I.e. not during a cold approach session. - This is hard, and not very specific either, so I wouldn't put a deadline on it just yet.



@FapFreeZone

The intermediate step sounds good. Basically, thinking about it, it's the same approach as the one I use... But then what do you do when you're at a stage, where it's not possible to define concrete steps? For example you're at a stage where you can talk to them comfortably, and the next step would be to be more funny, and you just can't do that... Ok, this is really deep, I don't think there's a good answer to this. Or maybe the answer is "just keep trying and one day it'll click, or it won't, but you'll learn a ton from your mistakes anyway".

Roommates, and job, and stuff.. Well, I live on my own now, I just don't like having roommates... The job is being sorted too...

Regarding the 'goal is to fail' idea... It's really fascinating indeed. You go out and tell yourself, "ok, I'm going to put myself in this situation, and my goal is to fail", no problem you do the thing, and you notice that in fact you did quite well. Then you go and do the exact same thing except you tell yourself "ok, now I'll try to get xyz result", and all of a sudden everything becomes awkward and very hard. Nothing has changed except your attitude, and just because of that, your experience is completely different.

@FapFreeZone: Ok, good job. I agree the next concrete step is to simply ask an inconsequential question. Once you get good at that, see if you can't throw in an inconsequential compliment ("I really like your hat."). People do this shit all the time. The next step is to say something after the compliment, then just work towards other stuff. Keep this in mind: as you no doubt know by now, some women are yappers. You might run into a chick who is dying to find someone to unload all her observations regarding hats--who knows? you might just click.

I kinda disagree with LongRebooter regarding working towards being funny as the logical next step (I'm not sure if he meant this as anything more than a suggestion). If you're not funny naturally, it's going to be very hard to just be funny spontaneously, I think. I would say don't even worry about that for now. Instead, work on the intermediate steps (we're ultimately working up to you asking for a number, and eventually dating--but baby steps).

LongRebooter said:

@Death Trap

You seem to be very organised, this is great.

On the sex with prostitutes, and being unable to have PIV sex... PIV requires a stable erection. You get erect, put the condom on, fiddle around, and manage to penetrate, and do all this while still staying erect. For me it was very fragile. She started giving me oral or a handjob, and the first couple of times I just told them to keep going until I'm finished, because I was so worried that it can be gone any minute. Success. Then one time I thought ok, let's try to put a condom on, and as I expected, it was gone. She couldn't even finish me with her hands after that. Mind you, it was a different girl every time. This was for multiple reasons. One, I was to embarrassed to go back to the same one. Two, I didn't really like any of them. I mean they looked stunning and young and all, but it was awkward, there was zero connection, the clock was ticking, and non of these helped my case. If money wasn't an issue, I may still visit them from time to time, or maybe hire some higher class escorts with whom it's a much better experience I guess. But then again, the amount of time you'd need to spend with them in order to get comfortable, and the price of that may still not be worth it, who knows. And it may still not be a solution on the long run, because you'd still be living in fantasy world.

On ruminating over failures... I'm the same. But I think I have improved a lot since I've stopped masturbating. Even though I think I'm still more sensitive than I should be, I get over failures much easier now. Same is true for causing people discomfort, or standing up for myself. I used to be a real wuss, but I handle such situations a bit better now.

On cold approaches, and my plans... I have an exam coming up in May, so I may put this whole 'getting a girlfriend' project on hold until that is over, because it really distracts me, and I don't want to fail the exam. I'll see how it goes, but I won't be able to keep any short deadlines. (I'll probably need to stop visiting the forum too for a little while, I'm starting to spend to much time here too.)

I would say I'll definitely do at least one cold approach session, but possibly more till the end of June. I'll have to start from saying "hi" and run, then saying "hi" and don't run, saying "hi" and saying something else, and so on...

Another goal could be to go on a date with someone till the end of June with no rules for where I've met the girl, and how I like her prior to the date. She could be from an online dating site, a friend of a friend, or someone I've met on the street, doesn't matter. The point is to go on a date, in other words spend time with her one on one.

I think these are concrete enough, and achievable as well.

For bonus points: Approach a girl or ask for contact details spontaneously, unprepared, on a random day, at a random place. I.e. not during a cold approach session. - This is hard, and not very specific either, so I wouldn't put a deadline on it just yet.

Click to expand...

I agree on prostitutes. Where I live prostitution isn't really practiced, so for me at least it's not an option. But even if it were, I see no reason for paying for sex. That is also very encouraging that you feel like your mental ability to accept failures has improved since stopping PMO. You're better able to assert yourself ("stand up for yourself" and "cause others discomfort") is also a huge step forward, which is where I"m hoping to be shortly here.

I think you've got good goals, and if you've got other shit in life to work on, that is fine. I think the point is that we need to set ourselves concrete goals, and push through the fear and discomfort necessary in achieving them--and not put it off more than is absolutely necessary. I basically just want this thread to be a place where guys can put their goals forward, and have others critique them and advise them on how to advance (and also offer motivation).

Regarding the 'goal is to fail' idea... It's really fascinating indeed. You go out and tell yourself, "ok, I'm going to put myself in this situation, and my goal is to fail", no problem you do the thing, and you notice that in fact you did quite well. Then you go and do the exact same thing except you tell yourself "ok, now I'll try to get xyz result", and all of a sudden everything becomes awkward and very hard. Nothing has changed except your attitude, and just because of that, your experience is completely different.

Click to expand...

There is a lot to say on this. First, we are all of us going to fail at some points in this transition. So, adopting the mindset that this is ok is absolutely crucial, or we will become discouraged.

Secondly, there is the cliche that failure provides an opportunity to learn, which successes really don't when you think about it. Reflecting on them can show us what we can do differently.

I am going to complete 90 days in couple weeks. One of my criteria to go back to sex is my horniness. I am afraid I am still in flatline and pursuing sex might prolong the on-going issue. Currently I don't feel any natural urge yet. I can get a hard erection when I touch myself. I will start finding girlfriend though, since it is not like i am going to have sex on the first date. I'd rather wait before having sex. What do you guys think? Have you experience normal urge? Do you think you are back to normal?

"I am going to complete 90 days in couple weeks. One of my criteria to go back to sex is my horniness. I am afraid I am still in flatline and pursuing sex might prolong the on-going issue. Currently I don't feel any natural urge yet. I can get a hard erection when I touch myself. I will start finding girlfriend though, since it is not like i am going to have sex on the first date. I'd rather wait before having sex. What do you guys think? Have you experience normal urge? Do you think you are back to normal?"

My libido is definitely back. I wouldn't say it's at 100 percent but it's definitely a huge step up from where I was before.