I was able to masturbate without porn last night, but...

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
...but I had to focus really hard on mental images. It didn't come naturally with touch sensation or libido (mine is dead). Is this still a symptom of something possible with PIED/flatline?

It was a big no-no, but I managed. I probably count this as a relapse as I was 47 days clean. So stupid of me. I just gotta move on.
 

getagrip

Active Member
I don't think you should worry about this too much. EVERYONE masturbates to some kind of sexual mental image. What else are they supposed to think about... quantum physics? Like I said in another thread yesterday, it's my understanding (and I'm still very new to this forum) that a reboot's main goal is to avoid sexually-arousing digital media of any kind... whether it be hard porn, dating sites, or Pinterest or whatever.  Masturbation is at your own discretion. I've gone six days without looking at porn and am very pleased with this. But now I am beginning to feel the urge to masturbate. I hope I can abstain, and if I give in to the urge, I'll probably feel some regret, but the important thing will be whether or not I've masturbated to porn. And I don't think I will.
 
X

xyz

Guest
I really don't think you should be counting that as a relapse (please anyone correct me if I'm wrong). I personally find that I need to masturbate periodically otherwise the urges get stronger to the point I risk relapsing again. It sounds like there is certainly some benefit to abstaining completely from all M during a hard reset, but having said that I don't think you can call not using porn a relapse. We have enough hurdles overcoming our addictions without making things even harder for ourselves...
 

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
I looked at porn a few times after 47 days clean since not looking in early September. Would you count that as a major relapse? I didn't masturbate to photos but was getting aroused. I need to control myself...this is ridiculously hard! And I'm in a flatline! :-(
 

Farmer1016

Active Member
Yes, it's a relapse. Yes, every time you've consumed porn were relapses as well. No doubt.

Throughout your posts on this forum, you detail all of the problems you're having while at the same time you seem to be bargaining with yourself trying to find acceptable alternatives rather than just going into hard mode and beating this thing.

You have to make up your mind where you want to be and then strive for it. You have to do this for yourself. No one can do it for you. And if you're trying to do this for anyone else, you're destined for failure.

And if you're bargaining to allow porn or picking and choosing your approach then you're destined for failure. It takes a 100% commitment every day.

The program is simple. No porn. No p-subs. No indulging in whatever form of outside material etc that gives you mental stimulation to get arousal. Zero.

Hard mode includes no masturbation as well. If you're battling the ED issues that you've described, then masturbating is not going to do one thing to help you recover. Masturbation to mental fantasy is not really a whole lot different than having a screen in front of you.

Masturbation to sensation only is certainly doable (and acceptable if not in hard mode) but can easily provide a gateway for relapse back into porn consumption. Especially for someone who has PIED. If you have death grip issues then masturbation should be avoided because it sets back all of your sensitivity gains.

You've posted multiple times about being in a flatline and having no libido or ability to become aroused. Nothing will improve for you in these areas until you get your mind around what your goals are and why and make an unwavering commitment to achieving what you want to do.

Do you really want to recover?
Do you really want to be whole and functional again?
What are you willing to do in order to accomplish that?

I'd strongly recommend that you evaluate where you are and determine where you want to be.

This is a battle you can win if you want to. But you have to want to.
 

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
You're 100% right. I'm not sure what to do because I haven't been able to form a commitment to want to get better yet. I may need personal support such as a Noah Church. Not sure yet! I am very afraid and need help. I feel powerless over this addiction.

I dunno what to do at this point.
 

Farmer1016

Active Member
Engaging in fantasy will likely further your PIED issues.

If you can masturbate to sensation alone [feather light touch and lots of lube] then that's okay once you're recovered.

Everything you do affects your recovery. Either positively or negatively.
 

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
Farmer1016 said:
Engaging in fantasy will likely further your PIED issues.

If you can masturbate to sensation alone [feather light touch and lots of lube] then that's okay once you're recovered.

Everything you do affects your recovery. Either positively or negatively.

Do you have any tips on straying away from mental fantasy so it becomes 2nd nature not to?

Because I struggle with that. A lot.

There's a lot of various info on the internet. Before I make a commitment, I really want to talk to people here and at NoFap.
 

Farmer1016

Active Member
Do you have any tips on straying away from mental fantasy so it becomes 2nd nature not to?

You have to train yourself to dismiss those types of thoughts just as you're (presumably) training yourself to dismiss those thoughts throughout your daily routine. When mental images present themselves, push them away. Give them no space. Focus only on what your hands are doing and the sensation from the manual stimulation. Use a feather light touch and lots of lube. You want to duplicate as closely as possible what it feels like to be with a partner. Gripping yourself tightly doesn't mimic a partner and will only lead to more issues down the road.

If you're not able to dismiss the fantasies or if you find yourself having difficulty becoming aroused to touch only then you should stop. If sensation alone is not sufficient then you're not yet far enough along and you need more time in hard mode.
 

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
Farmer1016 said:
Do you have any tips on straying away from mental fantasy so it becomes 2nd nature not to?

You have to train yourself to dismiss those types of thoughts just as you're (presumably) training yourself to dismiss those thoughts throughout your daily routine. When mental images present themselves, push them away. Give them no space. Focus only on what your hands are doing and the sensation from the manual stimulation. Use a feather light touch and lots of lube. You want to duplicate as closely as possible what it feels like to be with a partner. Gripping yourself tightly doesn't mimic a partner and will only lead to more issues down the road.

If you're not able to dismiss the fantasies or if you find yourself having difficulty becoming aroused to touch only then you should stop. If sensation alone is not sufficient then you're not yet far enough along and you need more time in hard mode.

Does meditation help with this process? I'm sure it does, but it must be difficult.
 

Farmer1016

Active Member
I have no idea about meditation because I've never used it. Perhaps others here can give you advice in that regard.

I do want to address something you said a couple of posts up:

I'm not sure what to do because I haven't been able to form a commitment to want to get better yet. I may need personal support such as a Noah Church. Not sure yet! I am very afraid and need help. I feel powerless over this addiction.

I dunno what to do at this point.

That quoted section right there sums up your current situation and all of the struggles that you're currently entangled in.

You're NOT powerless to fix this thing. The behavior we're all addicted to is totally voluntary. Our hands cannot masturbate without our brains allowing it.

The questions are once again:

Do you really want to recover?
Do you really want to be whole and functional again?
What are you willing to do in order to accomplish that?

If your answers to the first two are anything less than an emphatic unhesitating "YES" then you're destined to continue wandering in the wilderness and nothing and no one will be able to help you, not even Noah Church.

You've got to decide to do this for yourself.

Once you've reached your internal pivot point and your internal desire to be a better man is burning then, and only then, can you conquer this thing. Until you've reached the point internally that porn (in any form or quantity) is no longer an option then you're destined to continue starting one forum thread after another seeking advice or answers that you ultimately won't apply or utilize.

From my perspective, it seems like you really need to self evaluate internally in order to determine if you really, truly want to get better and if you're willing to fully engage in the very hard work required to get there.

Your posts sound like a man who is deeply troubled by his situation but, at the same time, you admit that you've not reached the pivot point that is absolutely unquestionably necessary for you to get better.

Until you've gotten there, these forums and the responses from me and others here will be of no real value to you.
 

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
I don't know what to do because I still have questions. I can't see how every time one gets aroused even if it's miniscule, to be considered a relapse.

But I think I know what you mean. It can lead to a relapse.

I really feel powerless over this thing. I really do. And who knows how long it'll heal for me.

I may have relapsed, but I learned from it.

Perhaps, I'll read some success stories.
 

Farmer1016

Active Member
I can't see how every time one gets aroused even if it's miniscule, to be considered a relapse.

Don't misunderstand, it's not the arousal itself which is an issue. It's how you handle it. Arousal alone wouldn't be considered a relapse. If it were, we'd all be in trouble. :)

If, however, you choose to consume porn (in any form or quantity) or masturbate or edge as a result of that arousal that's the point of relapse.

Your voluntary response is what you have complete control over.

 

enzomartins

Active Member
I don't masturbate, sometimes I fantasize about my girlfriend (not porn), only to see if I get an erection, but I never touch myself. I don't M and don't O. I just O with my girlfriend.

This is my method, and apparently it's working. I'm in a flatline this week though.
 

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
Farmer1016 said:
I can't see how every time one gets aroused even if it's miniscule, to be considered a relapse.

Don't misunderstand, it's not the arousal itself which is an issue. It's how you handle it. Arousal alone wouldn't be considered a relapse. If it were, we'd all be in trouble. :)

If, however, you choose to consume porn (in any form or quantity) or masturbate or edge as a result of that arousal that's the point of relapse.

Your voluntary response is what you have complete control over.

Consuming porn can also be just simply looking right? No masturbation? Like for example even if I was on a normal non-sexual talk/appearance or non-nude Skype video Session (just a simple chat between two buddies) with a friend however, he instantly gives me an arousal for a while, but what if I don't act on it or dwell on it? Is this still considered a relapse? Or just treading on dangerous water as long as I have the willpower to not act on masturbation afterwards or during the session? Or even fantasize afterwards?

I don't know how I should feel about giving up a simple Skype friendship if he arouses me. But if I don't act on it and don't dwell on masturbating afterwards, it shouldn't count as a relapse?

I truly and deeply apologize. I know that I need to avoid porn and masturbate. I know that you're only trying to help me and the rule is simple. I'm trying to really see where I'm at here. I want to fix my life up and avoid the computer. I'm looking into driving, schooling, etc. I see a psychotherapist weekly and this is one of the issues I've brought up.

I just don't want to be a slave to this addiction. It's even more heartbreaking, if I have to give up a friendship. It's not like we Skype every day either. It's once or twice a month, if at all.

This flatline is helping me not become hyperaroused because of no libido. Thus, I keep Facebook and don't seek and search. I'm able to do that well enough...for now.
 

Farmer1016

Active Member
Like for example even if I was on a normal non-sexual talk/appearance or non-nude Skype video Session (just a simple chat between two buddies) with a friend however, he instantly gives me an arousal for a while, but what if I don't act on it or dwell on it? Is this still considered a relapse? Or just treading on dangerous water as long as I have the willpower to not act on masturbation afterwards or during the session? Or even fantasize afterwards?

I don't know how I should feel about giving up a simple Skype friendship if he arouses me. But if I don't act on it and don't dwell on masturbating afterwards, it shouldn't count as a relapse?

My first inclination is to tell you to avoid all forms of external stimulation whether it be video, images, stories, or any other porn substitute which would tend to give you sexual arousal while you're rebooting. If you're getting arousal and stimulation from watching this person on a screen then I'm inclined to call that a relapse in your recovery. With that being said, I have some questions that may help expand the discussion a bit.

Is this a person you know in real life or will know in real life at some point? Or is he just someone that you Skype with and that's the extent of present and likely future contact? Is the sexual interest shared by him as well or do you know?

If you don't know this person in real life and aren't likely to meet him at some point in the future, I'm not sure how watching him on a screen and getting aroused is any different than a porn participant other than lack of nudity.
 

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
Farmer1016 said:
Like for example even if I was on a normal non-sexual talk/appearance or non-nude Skype video Session (just a simple chat between two buddies) with a friend however, he instantly gives me an arousal for a while, but what if I don't act on it or dwell on it? Is this still considered a relapse? Or just treading on dangerous water as long as I have the willpower to not act on masturbation afterwards or during the session? Or even fantasize afterwards?

I don't know how I should feel about giving up a simple Skype friendship if he arouses me. But if I don't act on it and don't dwell on masturbating afterwards, it shouldn't count as a relapse?

My first inclination is to tell you to avoid all forms of external stimulation whether it be video, images, stories, or any other porn substitute which would tend to give you sexual arousal while you're rebooting. If you're getting arousal and stimulation from watching this person on a screen then I'm inclined to call that a relapse in your recovery. With that being said, I have some questions that may help expand the discussion a bit.

Is this a person you know in real life or will know in real life at some point? Or is he just someone that you Skype with and that's the extent of present and likely future contact? Is the sexual interest shared by him as well or do you know?

If you don't know this person in real life and aren't likely to meet him at some point in the future, I'm not sure how watching him on a screen and getting aroused is any different than a porn participant other than lack of nudity.

No it's not someone I know in real life but it's perhaps someone I may know in real life at some point. They do not live too far from me. Far enough where I would need to drive on my own. i don't drive right now. The sexual interest isn't shared with him, I believe. But I could be wrong, because he does compliment me. He has a boyfriend now. He liked me at one point. He did invite me to be with him and friends at a game night one night as friends, however. I don't plan on rewiring with this person, unless out of some very unfortunate circumstance (or fortunate for me) he breaks up with his boyfriend.

I want to try and get over my sexual feelings for him at this time during the reboot. He does message me sometimes and even that can get me aroused at times. I don't act on it after though. It just arouses me, makes me have a small semi-erection for a while with pre-cum, and then it seems to be able to go away. I don't know if it's that even possible for me to get over him? Unless I start being more pro-active in my own personal life? Will that help subside most of the feelings? The feelings have started to subside, I think. They do seem to be kind of still there in a miniscule fashion.

He even knows about my porn-induced erectile dysfunction issue, that's how much I trust him.

I haven't told him he arouses me and that it may affect our friendship and I really don't know how to handle this. I like the guy a little too much, but we also are friends and I don't know how to handle this kind of thing. If I can somehow manage to get through this, I'm home free for a reboot.

This is really difficult for me because I really don't want to have to sacrifice a friendship over a reboot which can take who knows how long. It also doesn't help that I don't have any gay friends and he's one I would consider one.

Is having an arousing semi-erection with pre-cum for an hour without acting on it or even a rare few times if someone messages me on say Facebook really a violation and complete relapse of the reboot process while even just talking to someone who doesn't strip nude? We rarely chat on Skype.

I know that you're only trying to help, so I expect not to like what you may respond with. And I respect that. But this is just arousal with a screen and hearing him. So it could be considered porn. Hmm. Would it just slow down the reboot or would it really be a complete relapse?

I feel like I can't get better, no matter what I do...god damnit.

If anything above all else, this is my biggest hurdle of my reboot. And I really just don't know what to do. And we don't talk everyday.

The question I'd like to ask myself is why do I get so hyper-aroused? I'm diagnosed bipolar so that could be it.

It's the thought of him and the visual stimulus. My mind doesn't wander.

I try Facebook and just a simple message he sends can arouse me. It wasn't like this before at one point. We have tried Audio only and I was still aroused. No differences at all.

I don't know what the fuck to do. I feel utterly hopeless here. :-(

I don't even masturbate to him! It's just being aroused. Is being aroused to a screen really a relapse?

I wonder if I seriously should go to Noah Church for this one. This is...difficult.
 

Farmer1016

Active Member
You most likely won't like what I have to say, but here it is:

Based on everything you've said, your interactions with this person are destructive to your recovery process. You're becoming aroused by what is basically an artificial electronic stimuli.

In reality, your interactions with him are not much different than watching a porn video or listening to erotic audio etc except for the fact that you're both fully clothed. Even though you're not masturbating to these interactions, you're still bathing your brain in dopamine when you watch and get aroused.

By continuing to engage in Skype or other exchanges that you're getting arousal from, you're doing nothing more than continuing in a loop that will never allow you to succeed in defeating PMO and the accompanying PIED and other dysfunctions you're suffering from.

Long story short, you need to stop this. As I said, you probably won't like that answer but that's my opinion based on what I know of the reboot process and the effect that porn has on the brain as well as what is required if you want to fully recover.
 

scorpion1386

Well-Known Member
Farmer1016 said:
You most likely won't like what I have to say, but here it is:

Based on everything you've said, your interactions with this person are destructive to your recovery process. You're becoming aroused by what is basically an artificial electronic stimuli.

In reality, your interactions with him are not much different than watching porn video or listening to erotic audio etc except for the fact that you're both fully clothed. Even though you're not masturbating to these interactions, you're still bathing your brain in dopamine when you watch and get aroused.

By continuing to engage in Skype or other exchanges that you're getting arousal from, you're doing nothing more than continuing in a loop that will never allow you to succeed in defeating PMO and the accompanying PIED and other dysfunctions you're suffering from.

Long story short, you need to stop this. As I said, you probably won't like that answer but that's my opinion based on what I know of the reboot process and the effect that porn has on the brain as well as what is required if you want to fully recover.

So there's no way to not get aroused when I talk to him? There's gotta be a way I can lessen the sexual feelings, no? It's impossible?

Anyone else have another opinion? Wouldn't my interactions just slow down the process? How can this be a FUCKING relapse? This is quite FUCKING ridiculous. So I have to sacrifice a friendship to get over this dysfunction?

Farmer1016, I want to make one thing clear. I'm NOT mad at you. I'm mad at this stupid situation I'm in. Why??

Getting suicidal thoughts now...there has to be an alternative to this. Even if it's to keep myself busy enough so we don't talk possibly? Or at least, something that can lessen the arousal?

This sucks.
 
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