Masturbation without orgasm during nofap

I masturbated a little yesterday (less than a minute) without orgasm, until my reason caught up to me. I don't consider it a relapse as hard-mode isn't an option for me right now. My question is: does anyone have any info on whether masturbating just a little can hike up dopamine in the brain and create stronger cravings? I seem to remember reading something about it in Gary Wilson's book Your Brain on Porn. Thoughts?

Yes it does.  The biggest lesson any addict has to learn is that the addiction is 100% a brain problem.  For a porn addict, aka dopamine addict, we can get a dopamine hit via a lot ways that are not porn.  I would say avoid MO as much as PMO during your hard 90 reboot to make the reboot most successful. 

It's not a relapse, only intentionally watching porn is a relapse, but:

-It can trigger urges for porn or reinforce porn wiring, since masturbation and pornography have been associated in the brain from doing them at the same time.
-Frequent masturbation will cause your penis to become numb.
-Research finds that the less people masturbate, the more they enjoy sex and feel satisfied sexually.

So I would personally recommend against masturbation.

If you didnt use porn where is the problem ? If you lay on your bed, relaxed with some soft music on, alone, gently pleasuring yourself after a long day with a clear mind, where is the issue ? You will find, if you havent already, that there is no urge to reach orgasm because you live in the moment.

There are many things which spike dopamine. From cold showers until lifting heavy weights. Did you know you can get addicted to cold showers ? I was. Started using them as a tool for my reboot and escalated to 4 showers per day. Messing around in the gym can also be like that.

You see dopamine is not exactly the problem. Desire is. Now how does desire come into being ? Have you ever thought about that? You had a great experience, afterwards you remember it and then you want it again. The same happens with a woman, you look at her, you observe how beautiful she is, it ends. Then you remember her and say "I would like her as my girlfriend". And all the fantasies and mischief begins.

So the question is, can we ever live in the present? Because if we are always driven by desire, obviously we never live in the present. Dont accept a yes or no from anybody, look at it yourself. Because thats how the real interest for the problem awakes, because now each problem is a new problem, you no longer associate it with anything, so you have a clear mind to look at it wholly, afresh. And thats also where the sense of responsibility begins.

This might sound strange, but I think it depends on how you masturbate.  If you're doing it for pure sensation, it's probably not going to affect your reboot, but if you come close to orgasm (especially repeatedly), that's called "edging" and definitely can increase cravings / put you at risk for relapse.  I don't think the first kind is problematic unless it leads to the second kind which should be avoided.

There has been some anecdotal evidence here that it holds up a reboot.  I am thinking of one person in particular that had gone over a year with no porn but kept masturbating, but he never shook the symptoms of porn addiction, and had trouble finding evidence of rewiring.

My sense is that if porn and masturbation are intrinsically linked in your brain, then using one will stimulate the pathways of the other.  The more the pathways are stimulated, the less you'll be able to rewire.  I'm not convinced that a porn addict can pleasure himself without any porn pathways firing up.  Think of all the hours and brain chemicals that went into associating the two actions together in your brain.  That is what makes it different from other things that have dopamine hits.  The hormone rush of masturbation reinforces the porn, and the porn images create a desire to masturbate.  I'm sure if you had a milkshake with each porn session, having a milkshake during reboot would become a problem too, though that scenario requires a bit more abstract imagination!  To have a porn-less masturbation session would take so much dissociation from porn, that it would make me question whether there is a porn addiction there to begin with.  I could be wrong... some people claim opposite experience, but it is foreign to everything I learned during my reboot.

Whether you want to consider it a relapse or not, that's up to you.  Setting goals and evaluating those goals is all in your court.  Personally, I think dwelling on streaks and relapses causes undue discouragement, and when we're discouraged we just relapse more.  I think it would be reasonable to consider it something detrimental to a reboot, something you don't want to repeat, but also not a relapse.

I'm an advocate of hard mode.  But, hard mode doesn't need to come all at once.  Someone trying to lose weight isn't necessarily going to start all of the dietary changes and caloric restrictions on day one, but may dismantle old habits one by one on a path to permanent healthy eating habits.  If that is the reboot path for you, then that can be okay.  I'd be looking for ways to eventually get to hard mode though, especially if you want to see the real benefits of rebooting.

Can't say for sure, by always had a masturbate without porn as I was rebooting and it didn't do me harm. The only thing I can say is if you feel bad after it or regret it then it's probably bad.

If you aren't on hard mode then define what types of MO you feel is healthy. You will get a dopamine hit regardless, but it will be within the confines of your goals. But you could also get the chaser effect too. So another question you gotta ask is if all of that is worth it or if the risk is too great. For me I consider MO to a memory of a real experience as well as no mental image to be acceptable, the latter being the most preferred. Likewise I try to maintain at least a full week with another added extra day after each instance (lasted 7 days? next time last at least 8-9, etc) between instances because abstaining from that can actually improve your energy and focus. I always feel like I'm firing on all cylinders when I'm not draining myself even if it is within the confines of my goals. I guess just consider your motivations for this particular thing and the benefits versus the drawbacks and how all that factors into your situation.

But make no mistake, MO and this addiction is linked. From personal experience, it's just as subject to the rationalizations and triggers as porn consumption is and it does make craving for porn more active. It could also be possible to replace porn addiction with an MO addiction if not careful. But overall, if you find yourself just having a hard time focusing on your life goals because you want sex but you can't get any, there is nothing wrong with a quick, utilitarian MO to level your head. I also saw on the news many years ago that men who ejaculate regularly decrease their risk of prostate cancer (or maybe testicular cancer? I don't 100% remember which one). But I'm not sure the validity of that or the details of the study that yielded the results or even if that study was disproven by another study.

TheGreenWizard said:

If you aren't on hard mode then define what types of MO you feel is healthy. You will get a dopamine hit regardless, but it will be within the confines of your goals. B

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I don't think you'll get much of a dopamine hit because, there's no novelty if you're by yourself MOing. It could just potentially reinforce the addiction, like you said, that's the main problem.

Finw? said:

TheGreenWizard said:

If you aren't on hard mode then define what types of MO you feel is healthy. You will get a dopamine hit regardless, but it will be within the confines of your goals. B

Click to expand...

I don't think you'll get much of a dopamine hit because, there's no novelty if you're by yourself MOing. It could just potentially reinforce the addiction, like you said, that's the main problem.

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Based on my personal experience, it was indeed much less of a hit compared to PMO. But it still happens because of biology so that's why I made that statement. It's just something you gotta be careful about because it can lead one down a slippery slope to a reset situation.

Thats right. Masturbating in the `classic` sense might not give you as much of a dope hit as fapping would, but it may lead to a chaser effect which in turn could lead to doing something stupid such as PMO

It does indeed jack up the dopamine a bit but dopamine in and of itself is not bad, but you know that already. Whether or not something "counts" as a relapse is up to the individual. If we make a rule to not do something, and we slip and do it anyway, well, then it's a relapse. Simple as that. If your rule is to never look at porn again, well, then it was not a relapse.

I am going to chime in and say that during the reboot, all artificial sexual stimulation should be avoided.  If it is not sex, it is not sex, meaning it is artificial sexual stimulation, including MO without P.  The purpose of the exercise is to wean you off your dependence on a dopamine high, so, avoiding them, especially during the reboot, is the entire point.  Get rebooted first, then ask what you want in your life when you are no longer a slave to the habit.

My favorite line about this is from the movie "Thanks for Sharing":

"This disease is a bitch; it's like trying to quit crack while the pipe is still attached to your body"

sender said:

My favorite line about this is from the movie "Thanks for Sharing":

"This disease is a bitch; it's like trying to quit crack while the pipe is still attached to your body"

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True

I think its down to the individual. I personally dont see MO is an issue if you want to do it as it in itself is natural. When you add in the Porn element it gets very skewed and, aslas, that?s why we are where we are.

BUT

In my experience attempting to MO without Porn had mixed results for me, but often ended up in relapse, especially If i let it in after about a week or so. So for me just now i'm full on no PMO. However, i would not see MOing without porn as a relapse. But just be aware of urges it may ignite.

One thing to look at if you are considering re-introducing MO is tantric masturbation. There are quite a few articles online. It advocates using lube and doing it to sensation only. It can also be used for non ejaculation orgasm that is much healthier than edging. But read up on it before trying!!

Yeah a bit of a mixed bag. I remember masturbating without external stimuli, just getting off by myself, was a way I used to curb urges or even when getting out of a flatline - `kickstarting` the libido through masturbating.
But I do remember times when  I wanted to masturbate but could get an erection. I became frustrated to the point of looking at a few images just to get erect, then closing the images and masturbating just for the sake of it.
Exercise a lot of control when attempting to masturbate while rebooting